Replies (34)
I won't zap anyone that disables public zaps. I want my zaps to be shown publicly. If they hide the zaps they don't deserve my zaps.
That's fine as well.
Don't overthink this, there is no incentive for people to do this. If I get zapped I will ignore it, treat my npub like a burn address. If, in the unlikely event I get enough spendable utxos, I'll do a coinjoin or send to a non kyc burner address.
It's always good to be configurable. And fun!
An opt-out is a bare minimum feature, perhaps not even for the reasons of “being boring and paranoid”, but someone that simply does not want to be paid on Nostr; given unnecessary tax obligations, or in the case of a Nostr user in a crypto-banned or sanctioned country… being put in harm's way without consent.
Lightning is opt-in, so this was never a problem before.
Still don't understand what's the new kind of zap ⚡😅
I guess I'll know when it gets mainstream
The concern with on chain "zaps" is less that the transaction itself is public, and more that the utxo's history and future become public for all to see along with what essentially amounts to kyc at that point in time. Lightning zaps, on the other hand, are public -- however, thanks to onion routing and the lack of a shared public ledger, that is ALL that is public.
This seems to be the krux of the concern. On chain zaps CAN be handled safely, but it adds the requirement that both parties address this with things like coinjoins, swaps, etc, which adds unnecessary costs and of course, room for things to go wrong.
The problem with public key cryptography is that anyone can lock money, in any chain, to your nsec. It doesnt even matter which curve we use as Nostr. Anyone can always send you any token or coin from any chain. There is not going to be any future where that doesn't happen. And in many cases, the sender can actually proove that you are the only one in control of those funds, like it or not.
Which means that you can't disallow people from sending you money in your key in the same way that you cannot block say Iran from dusting your UTXOs with tained coins that you are forbiden to have a relationship with.
Conventional social media has all kinds of "tip jar" Zap-like functionality, and people don't go crazy 🤯 over it. Look at any Youtube or Twitch stream, users want to be seen sending $1 or whatever to their favorite creator.
We should lean into Zaps, because we're taking this behavior but supercharging it by (a) making it possible to send sub $1 amounts that legacy platforms can't and (b) allowing anyone on planet Earth to participate in a permissionless way. These two factors are HUGE.
there are a MILLION other options if you don't want public zaps. Just put out a lightning address and someone can send it directly. put out your BTC address, plenty of people still do that. Recurring subscription payments via Patreon-like functions, I'm sure somebody is working on that.
Yep, that's the way to do it. Because in the end, anyone can lock any coin to your nsec from anywhere. You can't do anything about it.
I think the problem is that people can see the balance if people dont move those UTXOs. Because in the end, you can get all the zap events on lightning and just rebuild a chain, since most people just re-circulate those zaps back into nostr. It's not a verifiable chain, but it is a chain nonetheless.
Yep, it is inherent, but it doesn’t mean we need to accept it as a standard, nobody was sending on-chain BTC to npubs until it was actively encouraged as a “feature” when it should be a warning.
Begging for Silent Payments to be adopted at minimum, then I wouldn’t care less about it, at least the receiver can “delink” their identity to an extent.
I mostly agree with the 'social fun' besides:
I've had many dinners at conferences where we split the bill, and it's so much easier to say 'zap me on nostr' than to pull out a wallet, make 10 different invoices and have anyone pay those. In those cases private zaps are preferred to receiving a few hundred K sats publically.
Silent Payments only hide the full balance. But people will still be able to collect all silent payments with a zap event and merge that into your "balance" in a similar way they do it with lightning right now.
Right, still one of many “improvement possibilities”, I’m glad everyone is prototyping rapidly!
"most people" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here:
> "you can get all the zap events on lightning and just rebuild a chain, since most people just re-circulate those zaps back into nostr"
(I love your work on all this, and I'm trying to be neutral-ish as we all move to the best solutions. I'm just pointing out that I find this argument a bit weak)
I don't think the issue has ever been about "seeing the balance", or about watching the public zaps going around within Nostr. As you quite rightly said, zaps are about being transparent about the fact that person A zapped person B an amount X
The privacy challenge arises when people try to swap in and out of Nostr, that's where the tracking fears start. Following the money within Nostr was never the issue; the issue arises when try to take the money out of Nostr, like using your on-chain Nostr zaps to make a non-Nostr payment
agree, in and out is also an issue. I forgot to mention it.
we're gonna need to do an onchain zapathon then. zapathons proved that zaps were fun.
We need a new name: zapalittlewithlargeamounts
Call them megazaps.
ZOOHHHPS
# ZOOOOOHHHHHPPPS
I dont know what you said but I will zapp you Derek because zapping is fun
Thank you,
@Vitor Pamplona and
@EVAN KALOUDIS . That is in the spirit of Nostr. 💝
🤝
Is that so? People see you received cause it was a zap but nobody sees if you sent the funds out again.
they can just check the chain for outputs.
Right, so public zaps can be observed and added up to estimate someone's public balance, and this shows us that there are different concepts that we're trying to think about but they are not being clearly distinguished so people end up talking past each other sometimes.
We can distinguish the concepts and think about the design of each concept as a feature.
One concept is social zaps, public records of transactions. This implies a public balance of public transactions (Only an implicit feature for the on-chain zaps. currently basically not implemented for lightning ecash zaps). People are not currently concerned about the public balance of lightning zap transactions. Probably mostly because it's just not currently a feature. And maybe they will be more concerned about public balance in the future, whether its added as a feature or not.
The other concept is private transactions. This is generally what people are trying to build tools for on-chain. Monero has more privatcy built in.
(BTC was the first and simplest implementation of non-custodial VALUE. However that simplest implementation also made the transactions and balances public. But privacy is another important part of money and BTC didn't have a solution for that yet, initially depending on security through obscurity.)
The public-private concepts also interact with the concept of privacy of transactions and balances for the sender and for the receiver. Some senders might want to send anonymously, and some receivers might want to receive anonymously.
Curious, not sure how accurate this is. Though most, as in, over 50%, yea, probably.
I definitely spend at Square from the same wallets I zap with, and replenish through things like ZBD and Satsman (and you know, purchases).
Lightning has great sender side privacy though. Not even the same ballgame as tracking payments onchain.
it's all fun and games until you need to consolidate those utxos, I've had so many wallets crash on me for this reason.
if people wanna start dusting each other at least we should build tools to cheaply sweep them too.
Sparrow works for this you say?
I think a main issue was opposing concepts:
- npub for building reputation
- privacy or npub
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There is now reputation with a spectrum of knowledge about how much moneys are in the npub...
Generating new npubs would be terrible.
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I must develop this idea of reputation on the bellow project, nost_pass maybe have npubs for reputation...
BrunoSlingshotVPN (npub1cl…qtgjy) on Nostr
Short Text Note by BrunoSlingshotVPN
seen on nostr.mom, nos.lol
They say; not my website, and I don't really want to run Sparrow because that would be a lot of time/money getting something compatible.
Thanks for the answer. Gm
