Replies (54)
Time to put Core to bed
They make the choice for people ro run Bitcoin Knots very easy.
She wears a diamond cross and curses like a sailor. Part of the marketing?
You can decide on your own.
This is stupid. Monero IS inflationnary, but it's not a bad thing necessarily. WTH is he on about
Fiat also has inflation because central banks print fiat out of thin air. But they are not bad in your opinion? They who actually financially enslave ordinary people?
Did you know about the second successful 51% attack on Monero?
"What happened technically: An 18-block "reorg" (reorganization) hit the Monero network - meaning that 18 blocks the entire network believed to be valid and permanent were suddenly discarded and replaced by an alternative version of history. To put this in perspective, reorganizations of more than 2-3 blocks are extremely rare in established blockchain networks.
The financial outcome: 55 confirmed double spends (the same money spent twice) and 115 transactions completely invalidated. While we cannot know whether these were merchants, exchanges, or individuals transacting, this matters little in the face of real double spending scenarios - someone lost real money."
Privacy. Cryptography. Freedom.
Monero Under Attack: How the Community Responds to Selfish Mining Attacks
An 18-block "reorg" (reorganization) hit the Monero network - meaning that 18 blocks the entire network believed to be valid and permanent were sud...
Have fun.
No, in my opinion, it is very different in the case of fiat.
I already talked about this here (a previous note, i can't seem to quote it here apparently but here is the link):
View quoted note β
Personally, i am willing to accept fixed and predetermined inflation of my currency if it is sovereign and private.
Plus, neither Monero nor Bitcoin prices correlate well to their available supply.
I am well aware of the 18 block reorg, and its implications. Though
-such an attack could only mean governments are scared of Monero's privacy
-qubic is now targetting Dogecoin and abandonning Monero, supposedly because it cost them too much money
Don't get me wrong, i still think Bitcoin is a superior store of value, precisely because of this inflation, and i'd rather hodl BTC than XMR.
Though, you have to admit privacy features are lacking in Bitcoin, which Monero provides.
1. The attack on Monero does not come from government. It comes from economically incentivized people who get more money when mining with the attacker. It also shows weak design. It happened two times.
2. "fixed and predetermined inflation of my currency" is wishful thinking. You have had how many hard forks? 14, 15, 16? It can change at any time. It is a bad desing. You sound like Powell and Lagard - 2% inflation is good for the people. Inlation is theft. Any inflation on the money is theft.
3. About the privacy in Bitcoin - check the research of SuperTestnet on Lightning vs Monero
Here answering probably to a friend of yours:
BitcoinIsFuture
>People think inflation is rising prices.
What kind of disgusting Keynesian propaganda has brainwashed you?
Central banks create fiat out of thin air (put it into debt) and create inflation which in fact is a theft from ordinary people. Central banks financially enslave ordinary people by creating fiat out of thin air.
You need to study economics harder, maybe read about Cantillion effect.
"Cantillionβs contribution to monetary policy is just as important today. In Essai, Cantillon provided an advanced version of John Locke's quantity theory of money, focusing on relative inflation and the velocity of money. Namely, when you print money, it causes more pounds to chase fewer goods, pushing up the average cost resulting in inflation. His theory has been dubbed βThe Cantillion effectβ, and is a lesson to us all on the effects of inflation βfinancing the financiersβ. "
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-cantillion-effect
1) Fair, saying governments directly control Qubic is a shortcut. My point was that seeing Monero being attacked hints that Monero as a MoE is enough of a threat to fiat. But no, the design (referring to ASIC resistance I suppose) is not 'weak', Monero is simply not as mature as Bitcoin (especially in terms of hashrate).
2) I know I rely on a centralized group of devs to maintain & update Monero's Codebase. If they go rogue, (like core devs did -wink wink-), I'lll deny the abusive consensus changes. Tail emissions can change any time there is a consensus to (not anytime soon then). Once again, I do agree BTC is a superior store of value to XMR because of the inflation tail emissions it injects in the supply cap. But is BTC better as an MoE? I'm less positive about that.
3) Thanks for the podcast. From what i've listened, most of the points made in the video are aligned with mine: Privacy in Bitcoin is possible, but way harder to achieve.
Selfish mining attacks are possible with any PoW cryptocurrency even Bitcoin. It isn't something unique to Monero.
If you voluntarily use a crypto that has inflation, no it isn't theft. No one forced anyone to use Monero. Gold mining isn't "theft" because more is mined every year. That would be ridiculous.
Monero/gold mining is open to anyone, requires PoW, and is predictable
Fiat inflation is closed to a select few, requires no work, and unpredictable
To say those are the same thing is dishonest
Any "fixed/predetermined" block reward or supply is only as good as the users that are in consensus with those rules. Code cant control people choosing to leave or join the Bitcoin network and taking their money with them.
Inflation devalues the worth of every hodler. Gold has inflation and it devalues Gold with about 1.5% a year. Its still valuable because fiat inflation is much much bigger than that. Same with houses that are build new in addition to the existing ones.
That is why Bitcoin being limited to 21 Million is The Greates Money of them all.
Selfish mining attacks succeeded with Monero 2 times, not with Bitcoin because probably there are differences ASIC vs CPU, incentives and so on.
Inflation in Monero devalues the worth of any Monero holder. Inflation is always theft!
"Monero/gold mining is open to anyone, requires PoW, and is predictable
Fiat inflation is closed to a select few, requires no work, and unpredictable"
That is True! But it only means that inflation in Monero is not that severe as in fiat. The same way that inflation in Gold is not that severe as in fiat.
But it is still inflation and still devaulues worth. The big difference with Bitcon is that inlation in Bitcoin is reducing untill it will reach 0 (already less and Gold and anything else). On Monero and in Gold it will go on forever.
Monero inflation will also tend against 0. Just like Bitcoin. The only difference is the time frame used.
How could something agreed upon be theft? If you know the inflation rate for ever, you agree on a possible (but not necessary) loss of value. It makes fiat inflation really different from Monero inflation.
Another innovative way to manage this with a predefined inflation rate is to use two units, one being the currency as usual, the other being the currency corrected from inflation. I only saw that in this "relative theory of money", only in French at the moment:
Sommaire — ThΓ©orie Relative de la Monnaie v2.718
It's being experimented with an actual cryptocurrency:
Duniter | Home
Duniter is a blockchain software powering the Δ1 libre currency.
So you are saying its not a theft of your value, its loss of your value. Isn't that linguistic gymnastics?
You seem to need to study more Monero.
"Monero's inflation through tail emission is designed to go on forever. Starting from mid-2022, Monero implemented a perpetual tail emission with a fixed block reward of 0.6 XMR per block. This results in a continuous issuance of approximately 157,680 XMR annually, indefinitely."
No. If I agree upon something, I am not being stolen, that's that simple. If you come to my house and take my car without my consent, it's theft. If I agree you take it it's not.
What if many people are not aware of how tail emissions / inflation on Monero work?
Like this guy for example
npub1ah3a...l76e
Monero inflation will also tend against 0. Just like Bitcoin. The only difference is the time frame used.
View quoted note →
It's maths. Fixed emission per block forever makes relative increase of money supply tend against 0 (0%).
157K/18M=0,87%
In ten years, 157K/(18M+157K*10)=0,8%
Etc.
Okay but that means so much increase of the volume with time so that it becomes negligible.
no, precisely because i am willing to loose some of it in exchange for better privacy.
Had it been without my consent, then it would be theft.
I'm not arguing Monero doesn't have inflation, I'm saying it is different from fiat inflation and much more like mining precious metals like gold
(anyone can participate, it requires work, and is even more predictable so the market can take into account supply for their future decisions at any point in time - you can't do that with fiat inflation) and if people are voluntarily choosing to opt into Monero it isn't theft. No one forced anyone to buy Monero and it's up to the user to decide if they want to buy it after weighing pros and cons. If they didn't research enough beforehand to know that's their responsibility. That goes for anything.
What you say is true, Bitcoin doesn't have inflation, but supply alone doesn't determine value. Demand is also a factor and you can't control demand. Even something with more supply can be more valuable than something with less supply if more people are demanding it. Demand is constantly changing for any good/service/money.
The block reward is a constant, not a percent, so you can effectively treat it as zero over time similar to approaching a limit in calculus.
GitHub
Scarcity Fallacy
Bitcoin Cross-Platform C++ Development Toolkit. Contribute to libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system development by creating an account on GitHub.
Then it's their responsibility to research before buying it.
If I impulsively buy something at the store and it doesn't work how I thought because I didn't learn about it beforehand that isn't the stores fault. That's not theft.
I agree with that.
The only correction is to the last part. The constant block reward inflates the supply and thus declines as a percentage of the whole but it will never be zero.
Yep true
Dude, please get a proper education not hustler's university theories on inflation and economics.
Honestly the reason why I stopped engaging with this. but it does make me laugh so thanks π
Maths? What's that? It's only NGU theory here!
Obviously I do understand mathematics better than you do.
Obviously not. It will never become 0 "just like Bitcoin".
I understand that with NGU you relate to inflation in purchasing power?
This is not incompatible with maths applied to inflation in money supply...
You see something wrong in this?
Yes. Depending on what is seen as negligible to you. Starting from 0.8% annual and only going down can be seen already as negligible compared to fiat π
I think his comment was addressed towards me. Your math is correct. He is kinda salty about smth.
Banks loan money to the government with interest that they print from nothing forcing the Gov to loan more and more to pay back interest.
That's not how monero works.
Like it literally says a fixed supply in the picture you shared
And we agreed its more like the inflation in Gold. Fixed inflation. Forever.
Bitcoin on the other hand is fixed supply. 21 Million Bitcoins forever and after that 0 inflation. There will be actually deflation due to lost coins. Which much much better store of value money.
Greshams law says "bad money drives out good"
So even in your framework the more valuable coin (Bitcoin) will be hoarded and driven out of circulation and less valuable coins (Monero) will be used more
BS.
You think Shopinbit represents the market? Some cryptoshit marketplace that focuses on shitcoins?
Why not look at the market cap, when we talk about Money?
Monero, having the fixed inflation will double its supply in 117 years.
Bitcoin inflation in 117 years will be 0 and its supply will be fixed at 21 Million forever.
After Monero doubles its supply, it will continue to inflate.
Also you did more than 15 HARD FORKS on Monero and got two successful 51% attacks.
Monero is not money. Its a token that really wants to be private and is still less private than Bitcoin Lightning Freedom Money.
Greshams law is in full swing and shows Bitcoin as The
Global Most Secure Decentralized Unconfiscatable Peer-to-Peer Scarce Hard Sovereign Freedom Money and Greatest Store of Value.
Bitcoin Market Cap $2.15T
Monero Market Cap $5.71B
Tail emission rate = 0.6 XMR per block.
Block time β 2 minutes β 30 blocks/hour β 720 blocks/day β 262,800 blocks/year.
Annual tail emission = 0.6 Γ 262,800 = 157,680 XMR/year.
Use current total supply β 18,430,000 XMR (approximate).
18,430,000 Γ· 157,680 β 116.9 years.
I actually see tail emissions as an ever decreasing percent fee on increased security provided by every extra block. A fee for a service.
As it is, miner funding in the future is somewhat fragile, and hodlers get something for nothing.
I also understand that opening this pandora box is risky.
But I see most arguments against tail emissions to come from a kind of (justifiable) revolted place against fiat and central bank policy.
Its your point of view. The time will tell.
What I am noticing is that many people try to predict the future and in my opinion they try to solve problems that are currently non-existant. And may never be.
Only visionaires for example like Satoshi Nakamoto can create strong, balanced and secure systems that can serve as Money. There are so many factors to weigh in.
There are not many people like Satoshi and also Bitcoin has no 2nd best.
Tail emission will double Monero supply in 117 years. I don't see that as a positive. And it will continue to inflate. It will tripple its supply in 234 years. And so on.
Bitcoin will have 0 inflation in 117 years. In reality it will have deflation due to lost coins.
Bitcoin will never double its supply because its limited at 21 Million Bitcoins.
And when we are talking about Money, Gold has been Money for more than 5000 Years.
Dude you're all over the place. There are many examples not just Shopinbit. I'm simply saying Monero competes with Bitcoin/Lightning at nearly any merchant that offers both as a payment method despite being SO MUCH smaller and difficult to get. It doesn't conflict with anything you're saying if you believe in Greshams law.
Danke. Tail emission is an attack on Bitcoin.
Bitcoin has 21 Million Bitcoin fixed supply.
Tail emissions on Monero will inflate and double its supply in 117 years, tripple it in 234 years and so on.
Thats not good at all. Bitcoin will have 0 inflation in 117 years.
Have you seen the Bitcoin's hashrate recently? Its ATH.
Monero had its second successful 51% attack.
"What happened technically: An 18-block "reorg" (reorganization) hit the Monero network - meaning that 18 blocks the entire network believed to be valid and permanent were suddenly discarded and replaced by an alternative version of history. To put this in perspective, reorganizations of more than 2-3 blocks are extremely rare in established blockchain networks.
The financial outcome: 55 confirmed double spends (the same money spent twice) and 115 transactions completely invalidated. While we cannot know whether these were merchants, exchanges, or individuals transacting, this matters little in the face of real double spending scenarios - someone lost real money."
Privacy. Cryptography. Freedom.
Monero Under Attack: How the Community Responds to Selfish Mining Attacks
An 18-block "reorg" (reorganization) hit the Monero network - meaning that 18 blocks the entire network believed to be valid and permanent were sud...
I believe in both Greshams law and competition in the free market.
Fair point about concerning too much about future problems.
Just want to note that doubling supply every 100 years falls far behind production output increase, so it's still deflationary and is still a great improvement over current policy.
It is inflationary and its the opposite of improvement.
this retard
or should I say his AI?
got the facts wrong.
the block reorg did NOT result in *any doublespends, let alone 55.
the txs that were reorged out simply returned to the mempool and confirmed later. there was no double spend attempted.
maybe dont rely on obviously AI generated "articles".
"Gold has been money for 5k years but monero is bad because no supply cap"
Hey, haven't you heard?
the number of monetary units doesn't matter as long as it is known and predictable.
get with the program.
A supply inflation of .8%
and approaching zero with every block
is such a ridiculous thing to get hung up on.
Autistically clinging to a fixed number is just maxi virtue signaling. Its bad monetary policy and its only value is memetics.
lol
π¦π¦π¦
Okay, I see double spends may have not occured but only because the attacker did not intentionally wanted it.
So 100 transactions have been invalidated. But if the attacker had darker intentions double spends were in the menu.
https://www.bitget.com/news/detail/12560604965971
https://www.theblock.co/post/370628/monero-shaken-by-block-reorg-reviving-tensions-with-qubic
Epoch 178 Recap β Profitability Update | Qubic Blog
Epoch 178 Recap β Profitability Update
Total of ~ 723 XMR + 7M XTM mined, translating to $290,000 profit.
145 billion QUBIC burned at an average of rate of $2000 per B.
Qubic performed 18-block reorganization on Monero blockchain.
Monero experiment / mining is ongoing.
A clown that can't comprehend that current supply will double in 117 years and tripple in 234 years and will continue.
The clown likes this. I don't like it.
π€‘
The most effective kind of lie is a true lie, or rather a lie containing a lot of distracting truth. That's why Peter Todd's bullshit is so alarming. Technically tail emissions are not inflationary, I figured that out a long time ago. He strawmans all the arguments against implementing it of course and advocates for genocide and fuck around and find out mentality. Evil prick.
Next level mental gymnastics.
Is Wall Street Hijacking Bitcoin? | Core vs. Knots (Full Breakdown)
