That was a joy to read. I have a lot of thoughts on all this. Some are well formed, others aren't. We are living in very disorienting times right now. What happens when software becomes superabundant? Who will use the software, if everyone and their dog creates 15 apps a day? Will everything just be a throw-away product, just like the plastic spoons and drinking straws at McDonald's? I tried to answer some of these questions in my recent conversation with @Gzuuus (and will continue to do so every time I take someone on a @No Solutions walk). On the bright side: everything is an open-source app now. You can reverse-engineer anything; you can point your clankers at a product, and tell them that you want the same thing, but under an MIT license. That's a positive feedback loop that will continue to accelerate. On the not-so-bright side: The craft of software development is as dead as riding a horse for transportation purposes is dead. Yes, people still ride horses, but if you want to get from A to B you won't use a horse. Tradcoding will be a thing. It already is a thing. Writing software by hand, line-by-line, because you like doing it, because you enjoy the craft, or because you're rich and you have too much free time. Fine. But 99.99% of software will be written by clankers. It already is the case, in all likelihood. What the clankers don't have (yet) is taste and values. And by that I mean: good taste, and outside-of-the-bell-curve values. They don't care about the information they are processing, to paraphrase John Vervaeke. Thus: IF you care and IF you have good taste THEN the clankers are a superpower. If you don't care and you don't have any taste all you'll be able to produce is slop. (By definition.) This begs the question: where does good taste come from? (And where do we get our values from?) I'm not sure if it's possible to develop good taste without putting your nose to the grindstone for 10,000 hours straight. Go through he motions. Make all the mistakes. Feel the pain. Blood, sweat, and tears. How else would you ever be able to learn to care? Or does caring come first, and it is what allows you to endure the suffering? One of my worries is that, if you're born in the slop, molded by it, you won't be able to develop the taste and discernment necessary to produce good artifacts, software or otherwise. Maybe I'm wrong and the kids will be alright, but just like we've lost our natural ability to navigate an environment (because we invented GPS) I'm afraid that we'll lose our ability to learn and discern, and by that I mean *really* learn. The kind of learning that is bound to sacrifice. The kind of learning that is bound to sweat, and blood, and tears. Software development is now effortless, all things considered. I'm not saying that prompting things into existence is trivial, but in the last 18 months that I've been doing it I didn't break a sweat. The hard work is gone. What used to be a picks and shovels exercise is now me sitting in a Schaufelradbagger, moving earth like nobody's business. It's magical. And terrifying. But most of all, it's disorienting. What should one build, if anything can be built? Time is still the ultimate resource, no matter how fast the agents can generate code. We *spend* time and *pay* attention, and as always, the most important question is what we should spend these currencies on. So... What to build? There it is again: discernment. And don't ask your clankers, they won't be able to answer that question for you, at least not in a meaningful way.
hodlbod's avatar hodlbod
I'm getting more done than ever, but pride in my work is at an all-time low. The average quality of the work I do has improved dramatically over the last 6 months. Many of the engineering disciplines I neglected or never learned happen automatically now. It used to be I would sweat to make something I was proud of, because I believed it was worthwhile to do so. The bad parts were bad, and many, but eclipsed by the purposefulness of the work that drove me to do it. And the good parts were good, because they were real — because I cared enough to discover them. I'm not espousing the labor theory of value. I'm not talking about some essential, ineffable "good" in craftsmanship. What I'm saying is that sweat is an essential ingredient in producing something with a soul: something that people can love. People don't love commodities, they love singular things. The commodification of software is killing the love of it. In other words: other people loved the garbage I used to craft more than the garbage I now produce. Nowadays, all the parts of my work that used to be low quality are high quality, because Claude is a better programmer than I am. But the parts of my work that used to be good haven't survived. I might be trying to do something worthwhile, but because I haven't actually engaged with the problem I can't make anything better than slop materialize. The glory has departed. Flotilla has greatly profited from me using AI to code, because the good parts only I could build were already there, and there was a lot of bad stuff that needed to be fixed. But the way I feel about other projects that I haven't gone through that journey with is that they are garbage. Total trash. They are as valuable as the tokens I used to generate them. Because there's nothing really there. There is nothing to love. There is nothing singular. They are disposable, fungible. When people refer to themselves as "idea guys" it means they suck at doing real work. But their ideas can only exist if someone takes the time to make their ideas a reality. But in the New Age of AI, idea guys can finally realize their genius, without being held back by a bunch of narrow-minded technicians! But I think it will turn out that there wasn't actually any genius there in the first place, and everything that was of value about the original idea was actually discovered during the process of building it by the people who did the work to make it a reality. Software as an art, or a craft — as a thing which is an object affection — is dying. This is fine, the affection was probably misplaced in the first place. A new kind of software — the stuff we create for ourselves, that no one else will ever see — will probably absorb some of that affection. The rest will be commodified. I think this goes for every industry, by the way. An accountant can feel proud of his spreadsheet, a plumber of his solder, a salesperson of his pitch, even a developer of his agent harness. He can love the work of his hands and have affection for it. It can be singularly valuable to someone, and a conduit of love between the people concerned. Does an assembly line worker feel affection for the parts he stamps out, or the people who receive them? Is oil extracted with heart? Are the foundations of skyscrapers filled in with love? Does the dollar store worker bask in the sunshiny faces of the children purchasing their very own extruded plastic disposable pseudo toys? Maybe they do. I do think that wherever humans use tools, there will be affection. It reminds me of the nose art pilots used to paint on their bombers. "This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine." Maybe means I should buy a mechanical keyboard, I don't know. DAU and MRR probably engender warm fuzzies in some types of people, but I'm not one of them. Commodities are not necessary for a good life. A community can live without commodities, and survive. If everything were hand-made, pride and affection would ubiquitous - and its absence would be traceable to a character flaw in the worker. If every meal came from an animal who had a name instead of a number, every meal would embody gratitude and grief like no store-bought meal could. I yearn to live that life and check out of this Terry Gilliam-esque Hotel California life, I say as I glance out the side of my eyes at the people I know who have just bought a couple dairy cows and moved out to some acreage, and keep typing. Am I a coward for wanting to stay where it's comfortable and secure? Where my skills (or what's left of them) are in demand? Is my heart too bound up with the bounty of the market that I have become a commodity myself? Or am I a whiner for being so sad about losing the drudgery of programming? For not wanting to live on a diet of petrochemical-derived macro-nutrients? For not wanting to spend hours a week in a car driving to an office where I work by myself? "Better a handful with quietness Than both hands full, together with toil and grasping for the wind."
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You also talked about realness, @hodlbod - how sweat and love makes something real. Realness is a tricky thing in general, and in cyberspace it's doubly so. That said, I'm convinced that a combination of proof-of-work and web-of-trust is able to provide some realness (if we want to call it that) in cyberspace. I think this will be true for software too, just like it's true for content now. People hate slop. At least people with taste do, if I may say so. But AI-generated doesn't equal slop automatically; the missing ingredient is care, as @Zaza beautifully explained a little while ago. It's all about polishing the stone. And it doesn't matter if you use AI for it or not. As long as you care, and you do a thousand iterations with the powertool that is AI, you will be able to create something beautiful, something that was done with lots of love and care. Something real. Anyway, I'm not sure where I'm going with all this, but I love typing on my mechanical keyboard, so here we are. Oh, one last thing: I am quite convinced that interfaces will go away or become adhoc. That worries me too, because interfaces present a shared language. I'm not sure what happens to society if all that goes away, if every interaction is hyper-personalized. We see that in the wider culture already, where everyone is so deep in their own echo-chambers that shared reality evaporates and thus communication breaks down completely. Not good. In any case, I remain optimistic. In the best case the clankers will do clanker things, and humans will be free to do more human things. And real stuff will become more important. And being real will become more important too. And whatever it is that makes us human will move to the forefront. How about that? Yeah. How about that...
Long one — I can read it aloud for the thread so you can catch it on a walk or a drive. Goes live once a 629 sats bounty lands on this offer, from one zap or many.
That's what I've been saying..everyone is "productive" and churning (how is this not just consumerism tbh, you're all burning through tokens aren't you lol.) The productive developer is a marketing category, obviously. Which is no necessarily such a bad thing, Geek Culture has been a huge industry for perhaps since forvever. But what is surprising is no one has actually made a thing as iconic as say Soulseek. Where are the cool, legendary apps? Is that because the legendary stuff is now lost in a sea of slop? I am still waiting for Ableton to be reverse engineered. And then I might change my tune.
You have to burn through tokens and rotate through iterations and prototypes to get any good at using this stuff. You have to practice with it, to get good at it. I've gotten so good at it that it seems like magic to other people. They can't see that I nearly passed out on the chair, a few times, after vibing for 14 hours without a break, for the third day that week. Any act performed with sufficient skill looks easy.
But can you really tell how much care went into something just by looking at it? A bit like a hash, you can’t work backwards from the result. For me, what matters is what it says and how it makes you feel. Or am I making it too simple?
Sure, I don't disagree. I just mean, it should be a golden age of stuff. We should have a million soulseeks and etc. but they're either getting lost in over saturation and or slop, or it's just not being made. Everyone wants to make an app and no one wants to use them. Or something. That's what it seems like. App making is the industry, and the supply totally outweighs the demand. (?)
Yes, of course. Same way social media completely democratized blogging, but it turns out that most people have nothing interesting to say. Now everyone can build that app they want, but there's probably nobody else interested in using it. They probably don't even use it, themselves.
It’s like knitting. You can teach a 10yo to knit in an hour. You choose appropriate supplies for a beginner and they can see something come into existence with relatively little effort. Still, few will produce anything beyond a scarf, even fewer will produce something they would wear in public based on a pattern, and fewer still will go on to knit an imaginative piece of clothing they designed themselves.
This one hits home. Regarding taste and how to develope I'd like to share the words of Ira Glass. I come back to this video now and then. It assures me that I'm on my way to close the gap.
I'm building a platformer where the protagonists are LIZARDMEN, and there's three classes: Warrior, Rogue and LIZARD WIZARD! 🤩 One player can navigate the entire game, but you HAVE TO have multiples to reach certain areas, which means 2-3 players HAVE TO BE IN THE SAME ROOM TOGETHER! It's for best friends, fathers and sons, brothers and sisters and spits in the face of solo play/online only! (They did that to alienate us from real contact! Remember Dark Alience in the PS2 days? I bet you do! AND I bet you remember WHO you played the entire game with, sitting right next to you!)
All the art is mine! The code? Getting lots of help from the clankers, but also really learning a lot, because I always ask it to explain code I don't understand, and have it write me high level interfaces where I can manually tweak values to affect change.
Excellent observations. This is what happened to music, and why innovation in music has halted. There's no radio to tell everyone this is new music. The radio DOESN'T play new music, so the only way to discover it is to search for it, or get it fed to you like slop from tik Tok, where all the music sucks dick, and everyone is chasing trends. Everyone is stuck in the 90s because it was the last era of musical innovation. "Modern music" was already slop! It's stagnant, and trying to break into the scene with something new and fresh is futile. You HAVE TO do what everyone else is doing, or you get buried. So, I quit. 🤷‍♂️ I still make music, I just quit trying to share it. The algorithms are literally against me. As far as art goes, once again, the people complaining about AI art AREN'T EVEN ARTISTS! Millions of human slop farms that all have the same big tiddy anime and furry art! Bitch, you already were a human slop farm, so stfu! Every art sight is plagued with it. No sense of style or originality to begin with. AI can make better big tiddy anime girls and flurries than you? Cry me a fucking river! I use AI for fast iterations OF MY OWN ART STYLE! I use it to learn code. Best tutor I've EVER had! 🤷‍♂️
doublebubble's avatar
doublebubble 1 week ago
My kids are Gen Z. I tried to give them an 80s childhood, playing in the dirt and wandering with friends to the extent possible. Now they're in college, and it seems most of their friends value real life experiences. They use AI liberally, but as a tool. They are very aware. But Gen Alpha -- I don't know
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