They are thinking critically, they just don't have the same assumptions. One could spend a long time arguing back and forth on whether or not the Earth rests on the backs of 4 elephants sitting on a turtle. The argument isn't important. What you should try to understand is why they are arguing for it on both sides. The proponent of the turtle theory is professing their world view as expressed by their religious leaders. There are benefits and detriments to having a society believe this. It gives people a common mythology and builds social cohesion. If they believe in the turtle theory, they might also believe in the other religious aspects such as loving and respecting each other. The flat Earthers similarly are professing their believes. Beliefs are a religion. They are building social cohesion based on this belief that others refute. They are forming these believes because the World has been lying to them on so many things. The Scientists have lost credibility in their eyes due to their corruption and subservience to corrupt elites. When you espouse reasonable arguments sourced from scientific theory this hardens their resolve. They spend copious efforts to try and refute your claims. Again they have very different assumptions and your differences will never be resolved but it is incorrect to say they are unwilling to put in the work. If they accept what you say and accept scientific reasoning, what do they gain? They lose the social cohesion of their fellow Flat Earthers. They lose the sense of belonging they have found. To believe in Science you don't understand (referring to them not you), is to believe in nothing. Understand the man not the problem and you will answer your questions in a more meaningful way. image

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except I didn't enspouse reasonable argument sourced from scientific theory. I asked them why the same constellations look different in the southern hemisphere. and received no response. I studiously avoided any non-personally verifiable theory for the very reason you mention. at least until much later when it became clear that they weren't going to talk about basic observational data anyway. It is better to lose the social cohesion of mistaken viewpoints and acccept personal responsibility for developing a viewpoint of the world that is coherent with observational data, then it is to just languish in cultish agreement for the sake of belonging.
iow it's not just that they're "thinking critically from different assumptions." The viewpoint doesn't explain basic observational fact.
it doesn't but its also true social cohesion is important. I just don't think its worth suspension of personal responsibility and critical thinking, which is what I'm observing.
Sure but there are levels. If someone denies gravity and jumps off of a cliff, their beliefs will be very short lived. Most concepts have little or no consequences if you disbelieve them. If the flat Earthers tried to circumnavigate the Earth by the stars they would realize their errors but I guess they will not. On the point of suspension of personal responsibility and critical thinking, I don't think that is a fair framing. From their perspective that they are not suspending personal responsibility and critical thinking. From their perspective they believe the opposite, that they are the one exercising the highest degree of personal responsibility and critical thinking. Their thinking doesn't align with a coherent and well argued scientific reasoning but they believe they are engaging in deep thought. I would posit that Flat Earthers engage in more thought on these matters than the vast majority of people who passively believe Science even tho they don't understand it. If one considers all of human history much effort and thought has been put into belief systems. Was no critical thinking put into early human history just because it doesn't align with current Science. If a scientist from the distant past was alive today and arguing for the science of their time because he couldn't grok modern Science, would you call him out for suspending personal responsibility and critical thinking?
I started with this today.
Hanshan's avatar Hanshan
you know... I was thinking about it, we start off with these simple observations " why are the stars inverted in the southern hemisphere " and the only explanation that actually fit the observed data is people walking around on a sphere. but that doesn't make any fucking sense if you don't know anything about *the context of the sphere itself* so for thousands of years this conversation was the status quo. P1 : " this ball model is the only model that explains the data. " P2 : "lol, that's ridiculous what keeps people from falling off the ball?" from the 18th and 19th century advances in lenses etc made it clear that the flat earth hypothesis was doomed as the logical gymnastics had to increase as observational data was gathered. but it's only the early 20th century that we get general relativity and data to *actually show* there IS a "force" holding people on the ball. iow, we get the context for the sphere people are walking around on. flat earthers are fucking retarded, they don't even understand that there is basic observational data which contradicts their model of the world. data people have been trying to explain since we were sailing around in dug out canoes, but its kinda understandable retardation if you think about the time frame it took to actually get here. they don't understand GR and to them, physicists are just priests of a new religion. lacking understanding about how the data was collected or how to verify it themselves, what recourse do they have except to ooga booga about it? View quoted note →
View quoted note →
Why is it better to lose the social cohesion of mistaken viewpoints? What tangible benefits do you receive? Also, a man who lived through Covid must acknowledge that the cultish agreement for the sake of belonging still exists under the guise of Science.
If they approach this as a true belief system, then applying any logic will fail. Most religions have this at their core. Irrefutable faith in their belief system. Any attack on their belief is a test of their faith. Should they waver they will have failed their faith.
oh I argue with those people too it's okay to have smaller, more fractured groups that identify by niche interests. smaller groups that compete or cooperate on the basis of *the effectiveness of their ideas* is a better social outcome than large groups driven by herd mentality. but this is maximally effective if people are actually thinking critically and creating views that map to their observations.
so which is it? are they applying MORE critical thinking than normies or is it as a belief system? 🤔
since the benefits are primarily social as you pointed out I think that's unlikely to be effective. like covid hysteria, it's mostly just flag waving and group identification.