Replies (92)
I don't think this generalization is fair. Hope you can take some time to reconsider this point of view.
Can you be more specific?
From what I have seen, most people don't even take the time to consider the theology of their sect and most RC don't even know or consider this point about good works. Most people are just born into and accept the culture they were given.
Ask the majority of RC folks and they will give the same answer as any other christian.
What do you think they would say?
If they are religious, they will acknowledge salvations is through Jesus Christ who is the way the truth and the life. More likely the average person won't be religious enough to even fully considered the routine of their daily lives, even if they attend church and follow the tradions of the liturgical year.
Do you think they will say they need to be baptized?
I think the point I am trying to make is that the language of "average" you use. Most people are not interested in knowledge or truth or theology and the sect doesn't really change that. An average person is likely to say they are RC without caring about religiosity.
While I am RC, I do not claim to be an expert in theology despite having an interest in it. Does the RC doctrine say baptism is a requirement for salvation? It does teach that this is the ordinary and necessary means for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed. However it also leaves room for those who are not baptized to be saved through the merciful action of Christ if it is according to his plan. Nothing is impossible for God and if he chooses to save someone who is not baptized he can.
The paradox I find the most troubling is the young death of children who were not baptized. I find it troublesome to argue that God would not be willing to save these children because they weren't baptized through no fault of their own even with original sin being involved.
Do you feel 100% confident that, having believed Jesus died for your sins, that you will be saved?
If I truly believe this yes. The question is do I? Some days perhaps more than others as faith is uncertain by its very nature.
What determines whether you feel 100% confident in Jesus's sacrifice or not? How well you are doing in your faith or how well life is going for you?
💯
Overcoming the accusations of Satan and being confident that you are worthy of salvation is a challenge I imagine most people face during their life. At times I lack that confidence.
Nobody can be worthy of salvation, brother.
So it doesn't matter what you do ?
Are you suggesting that those who truly trust in the worthiness of Jesus Christ will behave as if they have a license to sin?
If you are being rescued by Jesus Christ, you will seek to flee sin (having granted a new nature that hates it) and achieve ever greater obedience out of gratefulness and love.
Do you only do good deeds out of fear of being condemned to hell? That seems like a coercive, evil way for God to "inspire" Christians.
If we could be worthy of salvation, then we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
Salvation is a gift of grace, not a reward we earn. Our hope must rest in Christ and His finished work, not in our own perfection. 🙏
Molte religioni sono la scusa per permettere ufficialmente all'uomo di uccidere , torturare , sfruttare altri esseri viventi , umani e non umani , senza dover fare ammenda o avere un peso sulla coscienza. È una ipocrisia sociale.
Extremely arrogant judgemental and self righteous. It’s funny the whole boasting about knowing the proper Protestant theology. Ps. The Catholic Church gave you that bible. Yet Protestantism removed books based on what ? Who founded Calvinism ?
Are you saying that YOUR own trust in Jesus' works will save you?
That sounds like you have to DO something: You won't be saved unless YOU decide to trust, unless YOU accept Jesus.
Trusting and eciding and accepting are things you have to do. In other words, those are the "works" you say are necessary. Right?
*God* gave us the Bible through the Reformation, which the Catholic "church" fought tooth and nail.
😂
Jesus left the church
Regenerative faith is a change of the inner nature brought about by God, not a work the person does to believe.
So you don't have to make a decision? It's all robotic?
The head of the church is Jesus Christ, not the Pope.
And he promised the gates of hell will not prevail.
Yet don’t really become or discover real Christian until 1500s?
Read the scriptures yourself without some self righteousness formula.
There's a fair distinction buried here: whether the average Catholic's answer reflects official teaching or popular piety, since Rome's own position claims even those works are grace-enabled rather than self-generated. Which is the stronger critique — the doctrine as formally defined, or the lived theology of people in the pews?
No one is saved, it’s all bullshit - snap out of it folks. Free your mind - there is no spoon……
Have you heard and understood the Gospel and rejected it?
Give me the TLDR of the gospel in your own mind please.
How do you think that Christians escape hell?
Sounds like you misunderstand Catholics. I recommend you watch some videos by “Jesusandwhatnot” on YouTube
Where am I misunderstanding?
My brother in Christ, for 1600 years to be Christian was to be Catholic. Do you think God allowed ALL of those people to be wrong, only for some guy named Martin Luther to come around and make things correct? Come on now, it’s ridiculous.
No.
I think many (perhaps most?) Roman Catholics have real sense of loyalty to the church while also (without realizing the anathema) believe that Christ's death on the cross was sufficient to pay for their sins, therefore ending up in heaven.
Man has a will that is in bondage to sink; we freely choose sin accordng to our nature.
It is not until our nature is regenerated by God that we can (gratefully) choose Jesus Christ as our savior.
Nobody seeks God, not even one. The Father must draw His elect people into the Son by the Spirit. That's how gone we were.
The reformation is not a new religion, it is the recovery of the Gospel and the faith of the apostles.
(Therefore, the gates of hell have not prevailed)
Laser you obviously know myths and legends about the Catholic Church- and you believe that your work of having the right formula saves… maybe actually do your own research.
Jesus saves. The cross saves. Salvation happens IN TIME, through people,. It’s not some magic formula. The church is a living body in history. You’ve got a kindergarten idea of the ‘big bad’ Catholic Church homie.
Funny. If a Catholic or anyone goes to Catholic mass every day. 30 minutes. They will hear so muucy more of the actual bible than any non-catholic service …
based on a verse. A Ted talk and a band.
What % of the laity know Latin and for what % of the life of the RC church has the mass been in English?
If my knowledge of Rome is in err, then provide specific admonishment.
being saved is a requisite for doing good things as Catholic. If you really have faith in God and Jesus and you feel saved, then you can act as a son of God, someone who dont need to demostrate nothing to the world, someone that dont need to save himself, someone that can give his life for God and his brothers and someone who is happy to live the life God has thinked for hime. A Saint.
Dude that’s on you…
I don't believe it is in err.
You are the one claiming that I "obviously know myths and legends" without specifying anything.
We are saved by Gods grace period - yet we must cooperate, seek salvation, work with God,, we aren’t puppets and can lose our salvation by rejecting it. Again you seem to be relying on your own work of non biblical theological formula.
1. Roman Catholics do not believe that you are saved and then produce fruit, but that faith and works are both required, as well as maintaining standing at the time of death, in order to be saved.
2. Those who are saved by faith *do* produce fruit (with the help of the Spirit) out of pure love and gratefulness to their Lord.
3. Believers *do* want to display the glory of God to the world, and *do* demonstrate to the world their obedience as instrumental means of God.
Mankind is not a puppet of God but a creature with a fallen nature who freely chooses sin.
God rescues a people to Himself for His own purposes, not because of anything good in them.
Everybody God passes up is going to hell and God cannot be blamed for refusing to rescue all sinners who willingly rebel against Him.
Those who are saved are *granted* salvation by God. They are not obtaining salvation by following a careful procedural blueprint determined by Rome, but because God has regenerated the nature of the people whom He had set aside before time for His own purposes and glory (not because they could earn it).
Rome even acknowledges that God must grant the cooperation they imagine is needed for salvation, and therefore that gift of cooperation is not provided evenly or based on performance, but because God Himself has set aside a people for Himself.
You understand that even under Rome's framework that God must gift the cooperation needed to ultimately qualify for salvation? That even the choice to cooperate with grace must be provided by the grace of God? And that God does not provide this grace based on performance but based on His own sovereign purpose?
Why does God gift some Rome Catholics enough cooperation to enter heaven while passing over others, leaving them to be (rightfully) condemned to hell?
Because salvation is a work of God alone, and zero credit is owed to the creature. None.
This is accurate. And by the way this is not what official Catholic Church doctrine teaches, but it IS what the average Catholic believes.
View quoted note →The key is that you started it by saying “the average Catholic”
A Catholic theologian will not say what your post says, but the average Catholic will.
How do you know?
A Calvinist has entered the chat
Here for the comments
Your system is made up… there’s why Jesus left an authority. The church. Bishops. A hierarchy.
Rome's own framework holds that cooperation with grace is itself a gift of grace that God freely gives per His own purposes (not because sinners have earned it).
Therefor, Rome's doctrine points towards election. God's is Sovereign. God's will is free. Mankind's will is under bondage to sin, requiring God's action at every step of salvation.
Where in Scripture did Jesus establish the Roman authority over believers? Where did the Roman church obtain the authority to give continued relevation beyond God's Word?
My favorite Calvinist is Jesus Christ:
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.
Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Election does not equal Calvinism
There are thousands of incompatible god claims made from every civilization on Earth for 10,000 plus years. Then there was a field that made it possible to land shit on another planet and drive that fucking rover with a joystick in Houston. Just open you eyes and verify- don’t trust.
Ah yes. Richard Dawkins logic. That's the guy that thinks AI programs are sentient.
But how did we get here? Where did it all begin?
Thousands of god claims from every civilization maybe because it’s innate in us to know there must be a God
Don’t know. But it’s fun working on it.
Or innate in us to create them, seems like a pretty good hypothesis for why there are so many. Supernatural claims better have strong evidence, not trust me bro.
Richard Dawkins is a man I greatly respect that makes reasonable arguments based on facts. Your little hand wave about AI is weak sauce bullshit sir.
Dude my book edited by many, many people over thousands of years with failed prophecies said it was true
/s
Yeah, faith and work is both required, but no moralism or any compensation for work is really in Catholic doctrine. You are saved, you are a son of God, Christ is true human, true god and the sacrifice that already saved you the moment you accept it. At this point, you will produce fruit, you have the opportunity to live a saint life, loving what God has planned for you. The only "hard-work-required" is abandon the ego plans and have faith in God, all the rest is derived from this act. And when you have faith in God, you feel already loved and already saved.
You gain eternity and paradise by loving, in your interest to live a good life in the earth that has already in it the portals to eternity. God ask you to save you hoping you will be able to accept salvation, he doesnt "need" nothing from you, he want to save you a give you the Truth and real peace.
There's nothing you can "do" to be in a "better position", you are already saved everytime ypu choose to accept and glorify Christ in your heart; actions are impirtant, our life is made of actions, but them are conseguences and opportunity to love.
Every Sunday we say in church "God don't mind about our sins, but see the faith of your Church" (dont know exactly how is spelled in english, I'm Italian).
So God please dont mind about our actions, but our faith. Actions are important, but faith is the benchmark; all Jesus friend in the bible, Saulo, Peter... are saved cause their faith and then they have the joy to take actions. All the people Saulo killed dont define it. This is essential to Christianity, if any salvation would derive from good actions it then became a moralism and humans became gods in their hybris to understand gods plan.
and then I agree with all your points, I 100% agree with .2 abd .3.
But the starting point is important. A Catholic is saved by His grace, ALL the rest, that is also important, derive by that.
Then I dont know what Catholic you encountered, but this is my experience with Catholic church in Italy, this is what I understand, they told me I'm a Son of God, they loved me as Christ would have done, I laughed of them initially. I now can and want act as a Christian only for the joy of love, cause I being loved, only beacuse I accepted it. Only because is the best, the paradise already here, love how Christ would love, try to do my best.
On youtube there are a lot of speech of Don Fabio Rosini, they are in Italian, he is the father converted me to Christianity and Catholicism.
I absolutely advice to hear him if you can 🙏
1. Clear hierarchy with apostles and disciples. Peter established as leader. Peter is first pope. He is simply in persona Christi. Your fixated on the Roman thing? Peter was martyred there. But as a Catholic. Roman is simply a rite or expression.
2. Revelation ended with the last apostle’s death. Yet it wasn’t all written down in the bible. The church lives in time. There’s a development of understanding of revelation and Gods word. Which ultimately was made flesh. Scripture and tradition. Not bible alone. Never been bible alone. Bible was put together/ agreed to with the guidance of thhe Holy Spirit in the e 4th century.
Again most humans also couldn’t read and no printing press - yet bible alone was necessary???
This is a heartfelt reply. Thank you brother
😂
Who edited it? What failed prophecies?
I mean you believe in supernatural too don’t you? Everything came from nothing. That’s a miracle.
What’s more reasonable, everything came from nothing or there is a God?
If you live in a place with community colleges, go start with Physics 100. Similar to understanding bitcoin (but deeper for sure), there are about 2 years worth of basic knowledge that you need to get under your belt to start understanding the big questions. Once you really understand the physics of how we can land a rover on Mars and control it in Houston, miracles will start to fade one by one.
The God did it explanation, is the cop out for those not willing to do the proof of work required to understand the universe.
Go get it man!
This might literally be the dumbest response I’ve ever heard.
How does physics explain everything from nothing?
Honestly best laugh I've had in a long long time.
How about this one for comparison- “there’s a magic man in the sky that created the universe including the planet earth. He’s all powerful but he can’t even get that one planet of people to get the story right “
Genius shit right there 😂
Oh and the something from nothing also applies to your god. What god created god. Same problem my man - turtles all the way down and all.
Look man, you are posting shit on Nostr, just fucking appreciate how much you don’t know about how that actually happens and get your ass in school. It takes years to get to anything controversial - don’t sweat being indoctrinated.
Your welcome 🤘😂
Perfect so we agree that both of our worldviews require the supernatural!
That’s my whole point. The atheists make fun of those whose believe in God yet cannot come up with an answer to everything from nothing.
Who created God? No one! God has always existed. Doesn’t make sense? It’s supernatural.
Easy to explain. But you can’t use the miracles or the supernatural so you are stuck.
Is that a serious question? Edited by many scribes over the thousands of years. A large portion of the books aren’t even written by the authors they claim. And then Constantine and Council of Nicaea had formulated the books for the bible and beliefs around Arianism as we know it today. The primary failed prophecy when after Yeshua Ben Joseph’s crucifixion he allegedly appeared to his disciples before fully ascending to heaven and told them not to be discouraged because they would see him return in their lifetimes. This obviously never happened. So, the cope has been to claim it should be interpreted as the “lifetime” of mankind overall.
It’s worse than that… this omnipotent and omniscient being that created everything has … wait for it… Human Emotions
He’s jealous, angry, violent, etc…
OK
It’s the other way around. He made humans in his image.
Which passage are you referencing regarding they would see him return in their lifetime?
Luke 9:27, and other passages which contain the phrase "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Wasn’t that fulfilled immediately after in the next verses when Jesus was transfigured?
If ya wanna know, you’ve got to read the oldest versions in Ancient Greek I think. Check out Bart Ehrman for a bible scholar that did the proof of work on this shit.
Bart D. Ehrman - Wikipedia
You know that we can read the oldest versions for ourselves?
There’s no mystery around the translations. It’s an incredibly cool profess for how we got modern translations.
Thats not the issue here. The issue is that there’s this guy called Jesus. We only know about 3 years of his life.
Yet he’s the most famous person to ever live. Most written about person of all time.
Why?? How do you explain that?
