“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ‭‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Making Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior is only the first step to being made perfect as your Father is perfect, through the power of the Holy Spirit of Truth. A 'new' Christian is compared to an infant, one newly born of the spirit. Repeatedly these are referred to as "little children" and "little ones". Sinning undermines this work of the Holy Spirit, but does not reverse your salvation. You have seen the light, and you cannot unsee it. Avoiding sin is how you make your life easier, it's what naturally happens when you realise God's laws are not to judge your worth, but to guide you along the narrow path. It is to help you receive his Grace and Blessings rather than squander and rejecting it, which is also to reject the Truth in favor of the darkness of this world.

I came here to post this. Well done. And, I might add: "If you marry, you will have difficulty." - 1 Corinthians 7. "Did God really say...?" YEP, he did.

@LeviJohnson.net - I'm not sure what faith tradition you're coming from, but Scripture is clear that there is a distinction between justification (being declared righteous in the sight of God on the ground of Christ's perfect work and life imputed to us by faith alone) and sanctification (that process of slowly growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ, of being conformed to his image, over all of life). Justification absolves us and rescues us from the _condemning power_ of sin (Romans 5). Sanctification slowly removes the _indwelling power_ of sin. Both of these things are true at the same time. As Luther put it, we are _sumul iustus et peccatur_ (at the same time justified and sinful). Scripture teaches clearly that Christians still struggle against sin in this life--we are not instantly glorified in the consummate, complete sense by confessing Christ. If we were, then half of the NT -- the imperatives -- lose their meaning and force. Scripture teaches clearly, also, that because of that indwelling power of sin, relationships can be difficult. Here is a faithful summary of what is taught by the whole counsel of God: ``` Q. 69. What is the communion in grace which the members of the invisible church have with Christ? A. The communion in grace which the members of the invisible church have with Christ, is their partaking of the virtue of his mediation, in their justification, adoption, sanctification, and whatever else, in this life, manifests their union with him. Q. 70. What is justification? A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardoneth all their sins, accepteth and accounteth their persons righteous in his sight; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone. Q. 71. How is justification an act of God’s free grace? A. Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God’s justice in the behalf of them that are justified; yet inasmuch as God accepteth the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son, imputing his righteousness to them, and requiring nothing of them for their justification but faith, which also is his gift, their justification is to them of free grace. Q. 72. What is justifying faith? A. Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability in himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness, therein held forth, for pardon of sin, and for the accepting and accounting of his person righteous in the sight of God for salvation. Q. 73. How doth faith justify a sinner in the sight of God? A. Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it, nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification; but only as it is an instrument by which he receiveth and applieth Christ and his righteousness. Q. 74. What is adoption? A. Adoption is an act of the free grace of God, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ, whereby all those that are justified are received into the number of his children, have his name put upon them, the Spirit of his Son given to them, are under his fatherly care and dispensations, admitted to all the liberties and privileges of the sons of God, made heirs of all the promises, and fellow-heirs with Christ in glory. Q. 75. What is sanctification? A. Sanctification is a work of God’s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them, renewed in their whole man after the image of God; having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts, and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened, as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life. Q. 76. What is repentance unto life? A. Repentance unto life is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, and upon the apprehension of God’s mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, he so grieves for and hates his sins, as that he turns from them all to God, purposing and endeavoring constantly to walk with him in all the ways of new obedience. Q. 77. Wherein do justification and sanctification differ? A. Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification, yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ; in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof; in the former, sin is pardoned; in the other, it is subdued: the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation; the other is neither equal in all, nor in this life perfect in any, but growing up to perfection. ``` [Westminster Larger Catechism](https://opc.org/lc.html)

...see especially # 70, 75, and 77.

@freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg truly appreciate the eloquence of your first couple words. So clear and concise. Did you study theology?

You're implying that the ability to sin is the same as an identity of sinner. A person is not defined by what they do, but by God himself. "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, who loved me and gave himself for me." Therefore, no person who lives from Christ is a sinner, because Christ is not a sinner, but a child of God.

Having occasional difficulty in marriage is not the same as having a difficult marriage. These are distinct. If you are operating according to the nature of reality, and obeying scriptural injunctions towards interpersonal style, you may have some difficulty, but not a marriage that is always difficult, unless you are making choices that go against the nature of reality, that is against the truth. "You will know reality, and reality will make you free." "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full."

Justification and sanctification are distinct from identity in Christ. What does the Bible say the identity of someone is who has Jesus Christ as their LORD and savior?

I think it is possible to wholeheartedly agree with what @freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg posted, and yet also agree that the identity of the Christian is no longer that of being a sinner, because our identity is found in Christ. In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul says, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." That, "and such WERE some of you" is a statement of a new identity in Christ. No longer sinners, but "washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ." Yet, Paul's purpose in saying it was to call them out for not behaving in accordance with that identity they had in Christ. Even though I am now, by the grace of God, a member of his chosen people, his holy nation, and his royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9), I am still my own worst enemy, not doing the good that I want, and doing the evil I do not want (Romans 7:19). So it is still warranted to think of myself as the chief of sinners in the _present tense_, as Paul did in 1 Timothy 1:15. Surely we would not accuse Paul of not understanding his identity in Christ because he still referred to himself as a sinner. I am a sinner saved by grace, and credited with righteousness outside of myself; still in the process of being conformed to that perfect righteousness that I possess in Christ. The more I remember this, the more I am reminded to treat others who sin against me with grace. The one who is aware of how much he has been forgiven and how much he still needs forgiveness will be much more apt to forgive others. That kind of grace toward others born out of self-awareness of sin is absolutely crucial to marriage in particular.

Your philosophy of identity is based on a misunderstanding of Paul's explication of life before Christ, and life after Christ. Leading to Romans chapter 8, Paul articulates the life of a sinner, then beginning in Romans 8, he pivots to describing life in Christ, but many Christians don't catch this important distinction.

Humility doesn't come from believing you are evil, as sinner. Humility comes from believing you are as great and God says you are.

Humility comes from knowing that outside of Christ and what he works in you by the Holy Spirit, you are nothing. It comes from knowing that there is nothing in you deserving of God's favor, but that he nevertheless showers you with his favor due to the merits of Christ counted as yours through faith. Humility does not in any way come from seeing yourself as great, but from seeing Christ as great.

Romans 7 is not the description of life prior to conversion. It flows from chapter 6 which is all about how we have died to sin and have been made alive in Christ. Romans 7 is therefore ecplaining why, if that is the case, we still sin as Christians.

Thank you, brother. I haven't been to seminary, no.

Well said.

Reading the Bible is not necessary to understand your point tho 😂 anyone that’s been married for longer than a day and has kids knows the deal

It's like the ultimate #iykyk 😂

Amen. "I am the vine, you are the branches; apart from me, you can do nothing."

I disagree.

I think you're asserting an incomplete framework. Yes, believe Jesus is great and even more, believe he is God, but also, believe what he says about you, thus making him the implemented core of your identity in the renewal of your mind. John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. When you center your life in Jesus through intimate relationship, you see all things including yourself, from his perspective. And when you love yourself the way he loves you, then you can give other people experiences of the love of God.

I agree, without Jesus I can do nothing. At the same time, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me who loved me and gave himself for me. Therefore who I am and what I can do are defined by Jesus himself, and the Holy Spirit who made me a new creation. And I am one with Christ. Therefore, who and what Christ is, I am, because we are one. John 17 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. You are Jesus in @freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg form to the world, the living expression of oneness with God in absolute intimacy. You are defined by who he is. Since Jesus is infinitely valuable, and you are one with him, so are you.

Several issues with the above. Buckle in, it's going to be long. "I think you're asserting an incomplete framework." This is ironic, because I do not deny that our identity in Christ is no longer based on our own work, but on his active and passive obedience, such that we are seen as having all of our sin (past, present, and future) forgiven in Christ, and as having a perfect righteousness imputed to us by grace through faith in him. I also have no issue affirming that while we once were enemies of God, we have now been made friends. Reconciliation through Jesus Christ is a major feature of my theological framework, along with justification, adoption, sanctification, etc. If anyone has an incomplete framework, it is you, because you at minimum de-emphasise, if not deny the reality of remaining corruption and the progressive nature of sanctification, which prompted the Apostles themselves to still refer to themselves and to the other Christians they taught, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit I might add, as sinners. I want to hold ALL of what Scripture teaches within my framework, and not ignore the fact that the remaining corruption of sin is a thing, and while it does not affect our standing before God, or his verdict concerning us in the last day, it DOES affect how we must be watchful and ever mortifying sin in ourselves, by the aid of the Holy Spirit, here and now. See below examples of Paul referring to himself as a sinner: Romans 7:24 "Wretched man that _I am_! Who will deliver me from this body of death." I know you think this passage is referring to Paul pre-conversion, but he is speaking of himself in the present tense when he calls himself a wretched man here, and the "Who WILL deliver me..." is in the future tense, indicating something that he looks forward to happening but has not yet happened. Moreover, what unregenerate man can say, "For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being" (Rom. 7:22) or "serve the law of God with my mind" (Rom. 7:25)? Only believers love God's law and see it for what it is: the mirror of God's own character, and the explanation of what it looks like to love God, and love your neighbor. For more on how Romans 7 is speaking of the experience of the believer, I encourage you to read this from Robert Murray M'Cheyne:

The Inward Experience of Believers - Rom 7:22-25 - by Robert Murray M'Cheyne

This from Horatius Bonar:

Thirdmill

The Saint and the Seventh Chapter of Romans (HTML)

Article by Horatius Bonar from Biblical Perspectives Volume 13, Number 36

This from Cornelis Pronk:

Banner of Truth USA

The Christian Life - Do Christians Feel 'Wretched'?

Who is the Wretched Man of Romans 7? In Romans 7 we find the statement, ‘O wretched man that I am!’ It is made by no one less than the ...

And this from AW Pink (you can download the PDF or EPUB for free, or listen online):

Chapel Library

I recommend these to you not because I countenance the words of men above the words of God, as it should be clear from my constant appeals to what Scripture says, but because I believe these men have clearly explained and defended what Scripture teaches in this matter. Another passage I already mentioned, but which bears repeating: 1 Timothy 1:15 "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom _I am_ the foremost." Once again, Paul is speaking of himself in the present tense as not only a sinner, but the chief or foremost of all sinners. We should all be able to say this of ourselves, because no one else knows the inner thoughts and desires of our heart. They only see what actually breaks forth into speech and action. In addition to referring to himself as a sinner, Paul applies this struggle against remaining corruption in Romans 7 to the lives of the Galatian believers in Galatians 5:17: "For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do." He is here admonishing them not to live in accordance with their remaining sinful nature, called here "the flesh," but to rather live in accord with their new nature by the Spirit. This "war within our members" is the experience of every Christian this side of eternity. Paul is also not the only New Testament author to speak of this inward struggle of the Christian. James speaks of it in James 4:1 and following. "What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you?" Who is James writing to that he calls "you" here? Is it believers or unbelievers? It is, at minimum those who profess to be believers, and whom he counts as believers, for he calls them "brothers" 15 times in his epistle. Likewise, Paul, though he had harsh words for the Galatians, still referred to them as "brothers" throughout the letter, a total of 10 times, these people who still warred against the desires of their flesh and, like Paul in Romans 7, were kept at times by their flesh "from doing the things you want to do." You also quoted John 15:15, noting that Jesus called his disciples "friends" and no longer servants, as though this should mean we should always and only think of ourselves as "friends" of God, and not servants. Except, that's not how the Apostles referred to themselves, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, when they wrote. The word here for "servants" is δούλους, a plural form of δοῦλος. It means bondservant or slave. This word is used no less than 126 times in the New Testament, with a large portion of them coming from believers referring to themselves as servants or slaves. Not going to go through all of them, but here is a sampling. "And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness." (Acts 4:29) This was the believers in Jerusalem praying to God and calling themselves δούλοις, the very thing Jesus said in John 15:15 he no longer calls his disciples. Maybe they just didn't know better, though... Except, that it is one of the most common terms Paul used to refer to himself in his epistles, and he most certainly would have "known better" considering he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. "Paul, a servant(δοῦλος) of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God." (Romans 1:1) "For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant(δοῦλος) of Christ." (Galatians 1:10) "Paul and Timothy, servants(δοῦλοι) of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons..." (Philippians 1:1) In addition to this, Paul and the other writers of the New Testament refer to other Christians as bondservants/slaves of Christ, as well. "Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants(δοῦλοι) of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart." (Ephesians 6:5,6) "Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant(δοῦλος) of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God." (Colossians 4:12) "Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants(δοῦλοι) of God." (1 Peter 2:16) "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants(δούλοις) the things that must soon take place..." (Revelation 1:1) What are we to conclude then? Jesus says he will no longer call his disciples "servants" but that very term is used by the Apostles of themselves, and is commended by them to us to use of ourselves. Maybe, then, we should let God be the one to speak highly of us, while we refer to ourselves in lowly terms. Does that principle hold water? As a matter of fact, it does. "But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 14:10,11) "Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you." (James 4:9,10) Again, remember that James is writing this to people he considers "brothers" in the faith, not to unbelievers. "Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you..." (1 Peter 5:6) We are told that by doing this, we are imitators of Christ: "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant(δούλου), being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name..." (Philippians 2:5-9) So, our attitude toward ourselves should be that of sober humility, understanding that we are servants of Christ, and we should leave any commending of us, or speaking highly of us to God. Rather, we must "not think too highly of ourselves than we ought to think, but think with sober judgment" (Romans 12:3) and "count others more significant than ourselves" (Philippians 2:3). Finally, you say that we must "love ourselves the way [Jesus] loves us, then we can give other people experiences of the love of God." Where do you see that in Scripture? There are a couple Greek words translated as "love" in English in the New Testament. One is ἀγαπάω and the other is φιλέω. The former appears at least 142 times in the New Testament, and the latter 25. Of all of those times, absolutely NONE of them have "yourself" as the object of your love. That is to say, there is not a single example I can give of the New Testament instructing Christians to love themselves so they will be enabled to show the love of God to others. Not one. Rather, love of yourself is assumed as something you do not need to be told to do. For instance, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18: Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31; Luke 10:27; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8) is not commanding us to love ourselves, but rather bring in the fact that we already love ourselves as the example of what our love for our neighbor should look like; namely that we should care for our neighbor as attentively as we already naturally care for ourselves. The grammatical construction does not allow us to understand the above passages as telling us we should love ourselves in order to be able to love our neighbor. Rather, they command us to love our neighbor in the same way we already naturally love ourselves. To read them otherwise is to eisegete into the text rather than exegete what the text actually says, especially in light of what the rest of Scripture says about the origin of our ability to love others. When you ask the Bible how it is that we are enabled to love others, it has absolutely nothing to do with our love for ourselves, and everything to do with God's love and forgiveness toward us. "We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19) "Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." (Luke 7:47) This one is particularly interesting, because it shows that in order to love others, we must comprehend the heinousness of our own sin, and therefore just how much we have been forgiven. So, our love of others and of God is not based on our love for ourselves, but is based on God's love toward us, and our consciousness of our sinfulness and how much we have been forgiven. Practically the direct opposite of what you are attempting to defend. You have seemed to latch onto a couple things Scripture says, taken them out of context, and built your theology around them, without taking the whole breadth of what Scripture says into account. You are the one who needs a more complete framework. I probably do, too, as we are always learning and growing in our understanding of the Word, but in this instance my framework accounts for much more of what Scripture has to say than yours does.

Jesus is perfect theology, and all of scripture is interrupted through him. You can't be one with Jesus, and still be a sinner, because Jesus is not a sinner. A Christians identity should be build on Jesus, and His reality, fundamentally. What if Jesus isn't a sinner, so therefore you are not a sinner? Jesus could have sinned, but he didn't. You can sin, but you don't have to, because you are now a child of God. And Paul is clear about this point, spelling out that sin is optional is Christ. 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. You can't be a child of God and sinner at the same time, because it is performative contradiction relative to one's identity in Christ, since the universe of Jesus is a logical reality. What a Christian can do, since a Christian is free, is not the same as their fundamental identity in Jesus if Jesus lives in them as Paul delineates. If you want to be a sinner in identity, be a sinner. But if you want to be a child of God, a new creature, then believe Jesus. If not, your interpretation of scripture and your identity as a child of God will be deeply distorted because you do not believe what is most deeply true. If you believe you are a sinner, it will undermine every aspect and dimension of your life and belief system, including justification and sanctification, because psychologically you'll be in violation of Christ in you. It's up to you to believe your identity is Christ, and live from his and therefore your perfect righteousness, and therefore walk free from sin while focused intimately on interacting with him, Father, and Holy Spirit. A Jesus centered life is better than a sin centered life.

I think we may be talking past each other a bit. Are you familiar with the already/not yet nature of our salvation, and by extension of eschatology? Or the fourfold state of man? I again wholeheartedly agree that our fundamental identity is in Christ, and in him we are perfectly righteous, positionally. We should all endeavor to walk out our faith in accord with this reality. As you said, though we still can and do sin, we no longer are slaves to sin and can choose righteousness instead. You want to, because of the above truths, abandon any acknowledgement that we still remain sinners, because we still do sin, in thought, word, and deed every minute of every day. Every breath we take without adequate gratitude toward God for giving it to us is sin. We ARE perfectly righteous in Christ, but that is based on his righteousness credited to us. That is the already nature of our salvation. We ARE seated with him in the heavenly places. We have a down-payment on the inheritance in the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. I do not deny any of that. That said, we do still sin. Not just a little bit, but a lot. We are not yet glorified, but we war against the remaining corruption of the flesh every day. We still need to live a life of continual confession and repentance, relying on the grace of Christ to make progress in our sanctification, being conformed more and more to his image which we already have credited to us through faith. I do not in any way advocate for a "sin centered life." When I say that I remain a sinner in need of Christ to continually help me mortify my remaining sin, it is hard to conceive of a more Christ-centered statement a person can make.

Well said. And no, Jesus could NOT sin. Temptability is not the same as peccability. As a Divine Person, he _could not sin_. Who says he could either a) believes that God himself can sin, or b) needs a refresher on Nicene Christology.

Lolz. Basic logic refutes this argument.

I don't think we're talking past each other. I think there's a major fundamental difference in values. Primarily I think I'm interpersonally and strategically connected, whereas I think (I could be wrong) you are theologically connected. I understand the nature of reality spiritually, psychologically and beyond, and I relate to Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit personally, and I look at scripture through these lenses. Based on this, false identity destroys people, and true identity sets people free, and I don't agree with most of the deeply flawed theology the church or certain denominations teach and that doesn't work in the application of bringing Heaven to Earth. The Kingdom of Heaven is now, and so is it's application, according to the life and words of Jesus. So when people make absurd assertions like, "You're the righteousness of Jesus, and a sinner," it's too illogical and unworkable relative not only to the scriptures but to the nature of reality and my relationship with God, I think of the people who can be destroyed by that satanic lie. This isn't an attack again you, it's against the real enemy. You can continue to believe and perpetuate the enemy's lie that saints are sinners and try to use scripture to support it, but it is hurting you and other people too. If you want to grow, it would behoove you to recognize that people are not what they do. Bless you!

You're welcome.