Thread

Stick to bitcoin. Those are all wannabes even liquid is a wannabe. nostr:nevent1qqsqlsx2cyclqd032m4kclje9qs8fljcrzg355s97n68km0h3g7549szyzlyzcmw8ekjl6v7qefqphy2jq60jy5qvn7u6wdhtf5c8jh9t3ysjqcyqqqqqqgsne23l nostr:nevent1qqsqlsx2cyclqd032m4kclje9qs8fljcrzg355s97n68km0h3g7549szyzlyzcmw8ekjl6v7qefqphy2jq60jy5qvn7u6wdhtf5c8jh9t3ysjqcyqqqqqqgsne23l

So thankful for this explanation!

Lightnings UX issues are precisely why there are custodial swap "wallets" that's why another L2 is needed.

There’s no doubt we need more improvements. Justin’s point is that the current L2s do not fulfill the claims they make.

Noe your starving miners of fees

So many retards haven't figured this out haha

Let's em suffer

Let the network security degrade lol? Retard.

Don't know what Difficulty adjustment does? Lol retard.

Miner incentives are the most straight forward economics. If you cant get that might as well jump off a clift

Yeah the difficulty adjust downward because the network supports less hashrate and the network becomes more susceptible to nation state attecks. Do you know what your talking about?

Whats your models security budget for bitcoin when everyones using custodians? Seriously brain dead

number one red flag that a system is not bitcoin adjacent and not an L2 is about whether the client initiates things or not. in lightning, everyhing is bilateral. when i ask for an invoice from a seller/receiver, they send me a blinded path, encoded as onion layers, each layer being decryptable only by the node it is intended for. on my side, when paying that with my lightning wallet, what happens is *i* make the first few hops between me and the entry point that is in the clear on the invoice, and then the path follows what the receiver defined. it's impossible for them to craft an invoice that reveals where the payment actually originates. these are examples of client-driven activity, as contrasted to server driven activity. stuff like ark is really the new form of shitcoin. and drivechains, and all that proof of stake style or just permissioned style. unlike lightning, you can't just do this from the basis of installing a lightning node and making an onchain transfer to it, and then offer to open a channel with a counterparty. you have to ask nicely if the swap service will actually not rug you. as i see it, there is still so much more ways you can improve the lightning protocol. for example: - prisms: this would really help with ecom v4v type stuff where it's - again, CLIENT DRIVEN - the user agrees to pay some proportion versus the cost of the transaction, to other parties for whatever reason. the host and developer of the marketplace the user uses, some sort of charity. some poor person you want to help out, etc. would be nice also for such as restaurant and other personal service for paying the establishment and directly paying the server in one transaction, automated. to enable prisms in lightning, i think there needs to be one extra lightning message type (fork/join) - REDUNDANT atomic multipath payments - using 2-4x redundancy on the send such that the competing branches race and the winner triggers the competitors to flip into reverse back to the sender. obviously that's gonna require some complicated new bits in the source-routed (client driven) protocol. and not to forget, RGB is the current newest, and there was a prior L3, built on lightning and onchain also. these are legitimate, but not l2, they are l3. or l2.5, if you like, because they interface to LN and BTC. Properly decentralized swaps and decentralized coordinators of matchmaking are possible on a smart contract consensus network protocol. strictly speaking it's risk mitigation, by diversification. yeah, i worry about all these people being wooed by this shit, and especially the way they are all saying "oh, this is an L2, we swear" and "we need CTV for this L2 feature" bullshit. Covenants break the decentralization. i'm pretty sure there is a followup after they trick their way into CTV running on mainnet will be another attack on its decentralization that exploits the protocol in unexpected ways, but not unexpected to those who are running this racket. segwit was just a bad deal, but it should be obvious to anyone that probably someone involved in taproot had already figured out the taproot witness trick long before they actually deployed it. but someone poisoned that system with a vulnerability, exploiting a former bad protocol change, and CTV is step three, if you say that segwit was the first strike on bitcoin, which it absolutely was. and with bitcoin core being plied with whores and manflesh to spread bullshit about people who think bitcoin should stick to money only. bunch of fucking goblins. the new shitcoin is the fake L2

Why would I advocate for custodial use? L2 doesn't have to be custodial. Lightning isn't by default.

I think I know more about this than you do... You know what's never happened? Hashrate trending down. So what if a nation state attacks bitcoin? We fork them off the chain and go forward. You haven't thought about this as much as I have I promise you.

Security budget is Bullshit that people who don't know enough about mining think we need to sustain the network. The network creates its own budget. It's self sufficient.

Not promised to continue based on historical data because it relies on the market price going up. You won't find consensus to do anything like that. Stay delulu

Quickest way to incentives the miners to point their hash rate at a chain fork that has tail emissions? Starve them of all fees giving it to Lightning network service providers instead.

Care to explain how that works haha?

It is by default for 90% of users. Stop ignoring real world usage stats

Oh magic ngu technology? Haha

That's where your wrong. Hashrate can still go up if price goes down. But it's going up forever anyways.

Wait you're saying a trial emission is a good idea to incentivize miners?

I don't care about how other people use it. I care about how people CAN use it. Trust me, I'm a huge critic of lightning UX.

Technology is deflationary, Bitcoin is fixed. So ngu forever... It's simple math.

What incentive is there for more miners to pile in for a negative profit margin?

I'm saying they will fork the chain to get it because they have no on chain use due to custodians runing lighting

They don't. They'll go bankrupt to miners that are profitable. There's always miners that are profitable. Renewable energy exists...

No one will mine a chain that debases its own UoA...

Sovereignty for the few who have a stack big enough to manage channels. Custodians for everyone else.

Monero miners do

Yes. Part of my criticism. It does not scale Bitcoin to everyone. I can't.

How's that working out for them?

Don't remember that massive monero chain report a few months ago. Wow so secure.

Ok sure but your implying that there is an infinite growth to energy production? really what we care about is the ratio between nation state energy capacity and network capacity for energy generation

Its not ux is user requirements

So your solution? I say bip300 and bip301

You're still thinking a nation state attack is possible. It's not. If they do, they spend massive amounts of resources for no gain when we just fork them off the network. And yes, actually we do have infinite growth to energy production.

Ux is user requirement...

Reread the thread. I'm not supporting it im debunking your claim that they would never do it. If they run out of money something will give

Drive chains is an idea. I'd like to see it in practice. Nothing stopping them. Hard to say how it would actually work until it's in practice.

ifffffff its actually used as money and not superseded by an alternative chain

Ifff it doesn't become daily money for everyone then its just a collectable

So which one you gunna mine? Fedcoin or Bitcoin?

Layer 2 labs version is active on testnet

Bitcoin or death for me. We need good incentive structures for the rest

If it becomes less and less relevant, number doesn't go up then the expense may not be that large. I.e. monero

Theoretically but engineering wise there is a limit and even if it is infinit its about the ratio

Lightning's UX issues are inherited from it being an emergent part of Bitcoin, no "L2" can fix that as the physics of chain security are what they are. Only centralization and trust mitigate the experience for the casual user, which is what Fake L2's are repackaging with scam narratives. That being the case, the only honest and philosophically consistent approach is localization of that trust and coordination to family/small-business scale appliances

💯 Yep, that's all covenants do, enable delegation theater to centralized Bithereum-like Fake L2 apps, it's an application stack feature not a monetary one. I expanded on that a bit here nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqvckud5kme6d8x2ezfaemppd74aam3w3c7hc5p83h3awmq95g5ygqy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3yamnwvaz7tmwdaehgun4v5hxxmmd9uqzpld533l5sylnpnmvrlxg9djqj8qawtpr7zyvcursfajry6nwtaxpk5he4r

I like this and agree. Any L2 will have trade offs.

🎯

Post this on X so I can propagate it!

Fake L2 / centralized coordination creates an incentive problem with miners for sure. With any meaningful scale they'll have incentive to vertically integrate miners and coordinators to start play games where they mine their control transactions and not competing ones or exits. But that aside, if things remain where they are with sub-sat fees, and price languishes relative to the subsidy with future halvings, the nature of hash rate will inevitably change but not necessarily decrease. The big industrial miners right now are already starting to pivot to AI, the arb is starting to come out of stranded energy. The subsidy also currently draws in institutional investment that will pay a premium for "uncirculated" coins that have a known provenance and can't in the future be linked to "illicit activity". With each halving this strategy becomes more expensive for these institutional accumulators. That's not necessarily negative for overall hash rate, ASICS keep coming and each new version is cheaper than the previous one. Things like Heatbit are a glimpse into where the hashrate will move to once institutional miners start move on, application where heat is the primary output and Bitcoin just subsidizes THAT. Greenhouses, water heaters in your house etc. This would be better than the status quo today vs. a few very large pools anointed by institutional (nation-state?) capital.

Opinions and feelings run deep on this topic, but regardless of where you sit, I know only a handful of people who've spent as much time deeply considering the tradeoffs of Lightning versus other as nostr:nprofile1qqsrx9hrd9k7wnfejkgj0wwcgt0400wut5w8479qfudu0tkcpdz9pzqppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qyf8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68yat99e3k7mf0uajh2e. nostr:nevent1qqsqlsx2cyclqd032m4kclje9qs8fljcrzg355s97n68km0h3g7549szyzlyzcmw8ekjl6v7qefqphy2jq60jy5qvn7u6wdhtf5c8jh9t3ysjqcyqqqqqqgsne23l

Interesting insights. Hopefully we can solve the bridge problem or come to a consensus on integrating one.

I get into my solution, Lightning.Pub, a bit on the full interview It's a recognition that casual users are going to end up trusting somebody, so we need to make the tools that allow that to be distributed to the local extreme of the family/small-biz nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp0jpvdhrumf0ax0qv5sqmj9fqd8ez2qxflwd8xm456vretj4cjgfqqs026fgs259zza3973h6e36tkq0uupde50f2vec3qqh7ms4el4380c9qq9ly

I'll give it a listen. What about bip300 and bip301?

X doesn’t allow 5m uploads for unpaid accounts. I’ll remember to do it when it is published on YT and will tag you there.

I just got locked out of twitter too, they forced yubi-key re-enrollment and botched it big time Anyone trying to get hold of me there i'm not ignoring you

Can you upload to Lightning.Video? can share a link from that

This is the right approach by putting trust where it should always have been: family, friends, local business where you actually know them. Trusting faceless corporations and institutions is an abomination that, along with fiat, created the problems we are trying to fix.

Great idea. Will do that tomorrow :)

Bunch of nonsense, they're a little older than the new wave of Fake L2s and have been beaten up already. Ex https://petertodd.org/2023/drivechains Paul can't even get basic Lightning principles right, shitcoiner clown of the highest order.

i'll give it a read

Uploaded it on Lightning.Video and posted it on X last night. Hopefully you can break out of this loop and get back in soon :)