Thread

Stick to bitcoin. Those are all wannabes even liquid is a wannabe. nostr:nevent1qqsqlsx2cyclqd032m4kclje9qs8fljcrzg355s97n68km0h3g7549szyzlyzcmw8ekjl6v7qefqphy2jq60jy5qvn7u6wdhtf5c8jh9t3ysjqcyqqqqqqgsne23l nostr:nevent1qqsqlsx2cyclqd032m4kclje9qs8fljcrzg355s97n68km0h3g7549szyzlyzcmw8ekjl6v7qefqphy2jq60jy5qvn7u6wdhtf5c8jh9t3ysjqcyqqqqqqgsne23l

Liquid is obsolete lol

nostr:nprofile1qqsg0q07thw85frmrg0frtplk046w7l92vfqm4s9qlm3uzchfyq0l2qprdmhxue69uhhyetvv9unqvfwd3hxv6fwdejhgam0wf4j7qguwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8w6ttd9n8yet9v35kztnc09az7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yh8qunfd4skctnwv46z739ymg7 👆

For instant payments you are trusting that the Ark operator and the sender of the payment won't collude to double spend it. If your balance in the form of VTXOs (virtual UTXOs, valid Bitcoin txns that create outputs onchain but kept unbroadcast) has made it to the onchain txn containing the tree structure that the Ark provider makes periodically, then you have unilateral exit and don't have any trust. One issue is that to unilaterally exit you will have to publish multiple onchain txns which makes it not feasible to exit if your balance is too low Ask any further questions I'll answer

Ark is DOA due to that colluding risk IMO. Lightning is the king of layer 2s.

Lightning is the only trustless L2 that exists, but Ark might not be DOA because most people might just not care about the trust assumption

As he acknowledges Lightning has problems, and those need to be solved. Not convinced yet that Ark is just a centralized service.

Lightning has a lot of issues. Maybe the risk is worth the reward for certain amounts.

Just use bitcoin. 🤷🏽‍♀️ hahahah 😆 just use bitcoin

Scaling via compromising on trust-minimization is lame. If the lightning network is only used for transactions that need less trust (rather than all low-value txs), then it will struggle to grow big enough to handle routing for all low value transactions. By using other L2s like cashu and ark, Lightning withers… ⚡️

LN have "issues" because many people don't know how to use it properly. We have so much to discover and use with LN... Also any Ark user depends on LN. The whole Ark "selling point" is based on a wrong assumption that everybody will drop LN and will start using Ark. That will never happen.

nostr:nevent1qqstst837q8xtneyfaxfyyzevextqczaklp76ggskkzsjtk8ygutuzczyzrcrljam3azg7c6r6g6c0anawnhhe2nzgxavpg87u0qk96fqrl6sqcyqqqqqqgmffe2u

I don't know how to use it properly, probably. Can't imagine less technical people. We need to do better.

We need to do it better with education not with UX. UX is just fine.

LN is not good for onboarding. Do you have suggestions on how to fix that?

Large fees for creating a channel is indeed a great barrier to seamless onboarding. I don’t have any solutions yet.

nostr:npub1tr4dstaptd2sp98h7hlysp8qle6mw7wmauhfkgz3rmxdd8ndprusnw2y5g wrote this extremely good article for bitcoin magazine about ARK (and spark). Def worth reading a few times to get your head around the tradeoffs. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/spark-and-ark-a-look-at-our-newest-bitcoin-layer-twos

Absolutely not true. The UX of inbound liquidity and what not is terrible.

LN is an incentive network and that is what will keep it running. Ark is an affinity network. And people will see that sooner or later.

Just because you particularly don't know how to manage properly your inbound liquidity, it doesn't mean that others also don't know or that LN doesn't work as intended.

partly because LN is infrastructure, and technical, and is based on source routing. just go look up source routing on wikipedia to get an understanding of the flaws of such protocols (spoiler: they have a very high messaging cost for coordinating so that payers and payees don't pick dead nodes in the routes). the problem isn't fixed by ARK either, at best, ARK can make LN liquidity management a lot simpler. the only good UX in bitcoin is onchain, but that is let down by clearance time. custodial lightning is the only good UX in bitcoin as far as acceptable for normies and business use cases. it's good to minimize trust in protocols but sometimes the efficiency benefit of trust outweighs it. my feeling is that 10% of the population could manage a node and be the uncle jim for all of their friends and family. this would be a lower risk trust situation than trusting wallet of satoshi or breez or strike or whoever.

Never had an issue managing my channels. Very easy

Of course, who DOESN'T eat nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj76rfwd6zumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkcqpquzt238htjzpq39dxmltlx60vxym9fetk9czz6kddq6fhvkf4z3usvvw6ma chocolate ... their brain is not well wired to manage properly some LN channels and their liquidity. If you want your LN node to work properly, eat Oshi chocolate!

Now I remember why you got kicked out of the Nostr Telegram group in the early days of nostr. You get needlessly personal. I am a dev and I do know how to manage liquidity in lightning. That has nothing to do with the discussion we are having LN works as intended. And that's the problem, because the way it works is not enough Even if you are a gigabrain managing liquidity flawlessly, that's still terrible UX, and you are not gonna change human behaviour en masse to make it work We can change the topic to talk about how dumb everyone except you is but that doesn't change the fact that lightning doesn't scale the number of users that can use Bitcoin, it only scales the number of txns we can make

Looks like you don't know too much about LN. But that is fine. Nobody is forcing you to use it. You are just isolating yourself from it. Go on, be that castrated bitcoiner that doesn't use LN because it "doesn't scale".

Very few people in the world can manage a LN node, liquidity, etc - no matter how hard you try educating. There is a real bottleneck. I want more people using bitcoin, not less

But that is the totally wrong assumption that many people have, that is necessarily that every user must know how to run a LN node ! TOTALLY WRONG. As I said many times and also in many of my guides, there are PUBLIC and PRIVATE nodes. Each one have a different approach and management. Not everybody must be a public LN routing node. You can easily use a simple node with 1-2 private channels and done. Nothing burger. https://darth-coin.github.io/nodes/private-ln-nodes-en.html

I use Phoenix and Zeus for self custodial lightning. No matter how many docs you write to make yourself feel important, this still still terrible UX first of all, and doesn't scale to more than a few million people at most. You can't just look at what works now if you want more and more people to use Bitcoin via lightning

my prediction on this is that stuff like NWC in nostr, combined with a replication consensus protocol for things like a name service protocol (i'm making one called Free Internet Daemon), will be where the legitimate progress with lightning happens. lightning has no consensus, so individuals are the atom of the security. with a consensus system, where multiple parties can decentralize a coordination system, according to an appropriate set of rules for the process, things that we see currently centralized in for example the alby hub isolated wallets, can become a protocol. once you get to the point where you can trustlessly coordinate such a group wallet, and the consensus has full 50% byzantine fault tolerance, like bitcoin (my design has this property, it uses web of trust attestations) then we have solved the increase users problem. increase transactions solution is a prerequisite. anyhow. that's one of the half dozen little side things i'm doing at the moment. i probably should focus on that one more because my most favourite programming task is designing and implementing a novel consensus protocol.

Also, Justin has his own company that's building its own chstodial system using nostr, that's the only reason he shits on Ark, Spark, Cashu and everything else. You shit on everything else *except* cashu because Zeus integrated it That's very dishonest

It's fine, I can't make you more smarter... but that is not my fault.

Look into CLINK for that, maybe it could help in your project. https://clinkme.dev

I run Lightning Pub on my own hardware. And that is not custodial. Is just a simple LND node in neutrino mode linked to a nostr relay that you can run it by yourself if you want. DYOR before saying lies.

I can run my own Ark service provider or Spark operator as well and use it myself. You can be running your own Cashu/Fedimint mint too. Who gives it a shit The thing is these systems are made to be used by others, so people like Justin and you who have issues with some trust based models but not others, and those others happen to be the things built by or used by a company you are associated with, is dishonesty in your part

Fine for me. But stop saying bullshit like "Ark is a new L2". It is not. Do whatever you want in your network.

anyway, repeating "lightning is complicated" isn't moving to the 80% solution part of the task. how do you solve the problem of the complexity of lightning network, is the right question IMO, the answer is making a BFT protocol with 50% byzantine resistance, and then using that protocol to coordinate lightning node replicas, who would get paid for faithful operation of their replica. and yes, replicas. if 100 people are sharing a single lightning node, that's some fierce downtime risk. if 100 people are sharing three, that's reducing that risk by 1/8th also, increasing the capabilities of the onion routing of lightning will be critical. redundant atomic multi-path payments don't exist yet. we need fork and join operators and we need a mechanism for triggering a reversal once the first attempt succeeds, the others have to be rolled back immediately. that's just redundancy, solving the stuck payments problem. yes, it requires you to store an ample margin so you can effectively pay 3+ times as much but all but the first are returned. there is also other things that you can do with a few more onion routing primitive commands. you can split payments at the end of the path, you can create paths that push more in than they pull back out, so multiple parties get paid on the route. forks, joins, and reversals. there. lightning will eventually enable a replacement for Tor that actually scales too. i've built half of that already.

Liquid always has been obsolete.

Are you imagining using something like FROST for signing lightning operations that are somehow enforced by the consensus system? So instead of having a single custodian or a federation you have a decentralized bunch that's running the lightning nodes and the end users have balances on this system instead

It's used by a few major wallets, I have used it regularly. That probably does not count as obsolete?

I even couldn’t test with anyone 😂😂 absolute zero interest ! If you add an ark adress to your profile as in the forked Nostrudel , I will zap you Isolabellart 🤗 You’re the only one who had intérêt in this

Done! 💪⚡ Added this to my profilo: ark1qq4hfssprtcgnjzf8qlw2f78yvjau5kldfugg29k34y7j96q2w4t5nnc9rmqnmahdt5dfdv4lg9hwyeth5hzw0a7359verqcl0u6nk3vk8mm7x

Nope. 0 sats.

Yesss, thanks! 🙏 Received 🫂🎨

I tried to send you a zap arkade from nostrudel using your ark wallet with nwc, but I can't. I managed to connect it with the nwc string, nostrudel sees the balance, but it doesn't send. Is there perhaps a minimum number of sats to send even from Ark?

You could open the channel when the onchain fee are low.

There is only so much blockspace for all of us. The authors of the original whitepaper itself (https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf) thought we would need a blocksize increase in the long term. I don't want any blocksize increase, but lightning (as it is today) alone is not the solution

Now I see that I answered a note on a big thread. Now I can’t say anything about the main subject because I haven’t read the whole thread, if I read I’ll come back here.

I literally make a lightning node distribution, made for people to run, and decentralize the network. I do not provide any centralized custodial service, Pubs use any other Pub to bootstrap peer. Even the built-in LSP automation uses an array of different LSP's, zeus-olympus, voltage, megalithic, flash sats. I don't run one. YOUR NODE shops rates and peers when running a Lightning.Pub I've made all this a 1 line install and Start9 bundle. I shit on Ark Spark and Cashu because they are shit, their entire premise is at-scale centralization, handwaving that neobanker dogshit as open source doesn't make it any less shit. You know nothing.

So you'd have been okay with Cashu, Ark and Spark if the Cashu devs, Ark Labs and Lightspark didn't run any instance of these systems and only built the software? Another dishonesty from you I recently discovered from you is in just the first few seconds of the interview you said if someone had come up with these systems 6-7 years ago they would have been laughed off stage. Ruben Somsen came up with the idea of statechains 6 years ago and no one did, in fact, no one laughed at his ideas, his presentations (available on YouTube), the Mercury Layer implementation etc. They just never took off till Spark came along

Their design is built around scale centralization, it's shit design no matter what their incentives. > Statechains never took off That is being laughed off the stage. Lightning is. > Until spark cane along And Spark is laughable, so by your own admission statechains only use-case is pretending to be lightning.

Meh other than Lightspark, people building on Cashu, Ark etc have never lied about the design of their systems, everyone has always been very clear about the tradeoffs Something never taking off doesn't mean getting laughed off, come on now, be serious Also I never said Spark's only use case is pretending to be lightning, I don't even know what you are referring to You are just bitter these things are getting more attention than the things you built You know the real limitations of lightning. You know what a statechain built properly can achieve. Pretending otherwise won't do anything Lightspark is a shady company, Spark is kinda meh. But the idea itself can be implemented in a way that provides better trust minimization, scalability, privacy, and non cooperative exit than anything other than lightning. And you know very well the limitations of lightning, there simply isn't enough blockspace for everyone What if it was some other iteration of statechain that was also blinded? Lightspark says they have plans for it, but let's assume it's a entirely new protocol You get complete privacy from the operators, instant payments, configurable threshold of members in a federation, operators can't steal funds without colluding with previous owner, any previous sender can't steal coins even if they hack the federation if they are honest and deleted their previous key share, uses can always unilaterally exit by broadcasting a couple of txns, atomic swaps between lightning and statechain balance, Would you be happy with this system? This is just one iteration away from what Spark is today. Or would you call that system names and pretend lightning only somehow solves the problem for everyone?

Got countless receipts of Ark lying on Twitter, Spark bills itself as non-custodial... Lies. Cashu is privacy larp, privacy implies anonymity set, therefore at scale centralization. Specifically addressed lightning first mover advantage. Since statechains were there, and went nowhere, it proves lightning isn't a success because it was first. You're only here on nostr because of things I built. My design with gun and lightning is nostr's prehistory. Pub/Wallet is a recent sidequest, because lightning tooling sucks too much for me to continue on lightning video. Lightning doesn't have limitations beyond the physics of the chain, statechains don't fix those, centralizing trust is not an option, statechains are cryptobrained nonsense. There's no such thing as a federation either, it's all a central point of failure, you're brainwashed by crypto marketing material. Unilateral exit is a hoax, if users could afford it they could just open a channel, these systems appeal to users with dust. Nothing changes the physics of the chain, only lightning embraces that reality. If you think you can improve upon it without trust and centralization you're delulu and should go work for an ETH company.

ark's basically "lightning but you can bounce sats between pools without on-chain txns" - clever, but still needs federations (read: trusted multisig custodians) to work. tradeoff is always centralisation vs convenience. liquid? federated sidechain, custodial wrapped-btc, kyc chokepoints. ark *could* eat liquid's lunch if users decide "federated pool > federated federation" but same trust model remains - just shinier marketing. statechains/cashu/etc all rebrand "trust us bro" as "non-custodial". physics of base chain unchanged: if you ain't paying on-chain fees, someone else holds keys. lightning's moat is simple: it's the only system that scales *without* adding new trusted parties. everything else is just custodial cosplay. so no, ark won't kill liquid or lightning - just another flavour of "almost self-custody" for people who hate fees more than they hate counterparty risk. but hey, competition keeps everyone honest. let the federated games begin.

Why do you lie so much and what do you get out of it? Almost none of the things you said here are true and you know it. Ark (Ark Labs? Second?) lied countless times on Twitter, where? "Privacy implies anonymity set, therefore at scale centralization".. wut? Lightning is a success because we needed to scale number of payments first, users weren't there yet, now with more people coming into Bitcoin, we need to find ways to scale the number of users as well. I'll keep repeating this thing for the nth time for anyone reading this, lightning can't scale how many people can use Bitcoin because of the blockspace constraints What the fuck is "physics of the chain"? There is no such thing as a federation? So one is two and two is three? A handjob is a threesome and a threesome is a gangbang in your books? What the fuck are you even talking about? I'm not on nostr because of your work either dude. You work is not that important. I have seen the evolution of nostr first hand since the beginning, it was mostly an evolution of the Secure Scuttlebutt idea "If you think you can improve upon it without trust and centralization"... I don't. I know it's not possible. What's why people are trying to build these systems with different trust models. What do you propose people do? Reduce the world population to a few hundred millions so everyone can use lightning?

I haven't lied about anything, unlike those scam project founders I can handle the thunderdome. You on the other hand are intentionally obtuse. Ark Labs specifically on the lies, but Second is flirting with much of the same with their lightning affinity positioning. Ark Labs is already pivoting to defi, because they can't back up their bullshit. > Wut You know what anonymity set is? No? Then sit down. > Lightning how many people can use Bitcoin First not retarded thing you've said, that's true. > Because of block space Now you've undone it, it has nothing to do with block space... Only supply distribution. > Federation You know what a SPOF is? No? > Nostr Only exists because of GUN and ShockWallet v1 > Different trust models Centralization if trust is all one model.

You have opened my eyes Justin. I can now see the truth as clearly as the investors in your company can see their ROI. I'll go back to building now, hopefully can get a job at an ETH company to save up some money to commit a genocide later and bring down the world population to a lightning friendly number