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No it's not. This is retarded. This kind of thinking leads to dehumanizing people.
If you think working a job of your own volition for a pay rate that you agreed to is akin to violence because you're not being paid enough, then you are retarded.
You are not a slave. You don't have to work there.
Attributing violence to otherwise completely consensual employment agreement is a good way to start painting CEOs as non human so you can rationize actual violence towards them.
It sucks that the government can just print stonks for some people, allow people with over $1,000,000 to become accredited investors capable of achieving 1,000X returns to dump on retail plebs while the government debases the currency and ducks over the little guy.
If his paycheck doesn't cover your needs, go work somewhere else or git gud.
It's not a labor camp just because you're not happy with the pay. And not all jobs are meant to earn a "living wage"
Top 10% wage earners is only 210k a year. They're not the ultra wealthy until you get to 1% at which point the figure is 780k a year.
Who told you that someone having more money than you is a bad thing? Go learn a valuable skill instead of whining about your situation.
Tell me you don't understand free market capitalism without telling me.
There is no such thing as minimum wage.
And the labor is not coerst in a free market. You have the freedom to work for whoever you want to work for in the US. No one is making you take a bad paying job. No one is forcing you to work there.
You do know that not everyone needs to work a full time job to pay for their needs? So you just gunna take away all of their opportunities? A grocery bagger is not meant to earn a livable wage working 20hours a week. Because he lives with mom and dad and goes to school. A Walmart greeter is not meant to earn a living wage. Because they're retired and on social security already and physically can't work more than 20 hours a week. Raise minimum wage? And what will that accomplish? Just more inflation. You think you can make companies pay their employees more and make them not raise their prices too? Just a big fan of socialism huh?
Of course there isn't a place that's 100% free. That's nature. We don't live in a Utopia. But to say that the United States doesn't have a free market or capitalism at all is a stretch.
No place on earth has 100% of any system. They are all amalgamations of economic systems. The US just happens to lean on the Free Market Capitalism far more than most countries.
Yea... You're just retarded. That's fine. You see opportunity as exploitation. You have an issue with your mindset. A permanent victim.
There is no such thing as minimum wage. That's just setting a price floor. Which is bad for the same reasons as a price cap.
Wages stagnate because of deflationary effects of technology. We are far more productive and we don't have hyperinflation. You don't have to raise wages in lock step with profit. That's retarded.
Because we can't stop printing money. We are in fiscal dominance.
Go beg daddy government for a bigger paycheck. Cry harder.
Do you live under a rock? Which places have the highest minimum wage? And which places have the highest crime, and lowest job opportunities? Oh they're the same places...
But since you have a hard time using Google, let me help you.
Strongest data points
If you want to raise the minimum wage, understand the tradeoffs:
• $15 federal minimum wage: CBO estimated it would raise wages for 17 million workers, but also cause 1.4 million workers to lose employment.
• Prices: Research on minimum-wage increases consistently finds businesses pass part of higher labor costs on to consumers—especially in restaurants.
• Hours: Businesses don't have to fire workers to reduce labor costs. They can cut hours, shifts, overtime, and hiring instead.
• Teen workers: Young and inexperienced workers tend to experience the largest employment effects because their productivity is often closest to the minimum wage.
• Automation: Higher labor costs increase the incentive to replace low-skilled labor with self-checkout, kiosks, ordering apps, and other automation.
A minimum wage doesn't make labor more productive. It makes employing that labor more expensive.
The real question isn't whether workers should earn more.
It's who pays for it—and who gets priced out of the labor market.
Source: Congressional Budget Office, The Effects on Employment and Family Income of Increasing the Federal Minimum Wage (2019).
Because things are cheaper... How much is a TV now compared to the year 2000. And what quality is that TV?
It's not outpacing inflation. Which would be the real problem...
Raising minimum wage is not how you combat inflation.
It actually will increase the amount of money printing. Further exhasrbating everything.
If labor is being undervalued then that points to a supply demand imbalance in the market. You can't correct that by setting an artificial price floor. In the county where I live the effective minimum wage, (the lowest pay rate entry level jobs are advertised for to get bodies), is almost double the state minimum wage. It's not because a government said so and it's not because employers here are extra generous, it's because that's where the forces of supply and demand have set the price of low skill labor.
Wages are down because of inflation. You are making my argument... They are not down because muh CEO is making me poor.
Precisely. @ BlueDuckBTC The reason I'm calling you retarded is because you are advocating for a solution that will not solve anything and actually make things worse. The evidence is clear. You ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?
Go beg Daddy Government for more money.
Because we demanded wages companies could not afford to pay...
So they found cheaper labor.
But Yea let's demand they pay even more money. Surely it will have to opposite effect this time and not displace even more jobs to third world countries with ACTUAL slave labor.
Those 2 things have nothing to do with each other. I'm not sure what parallel you're even trying to draw.
Please show me one case of any employee in America that wanted to quit but wasn't allowed to. You can't because we don't have labor camps. You are free to work or not work wherever you want to at the price you and your employer agree to.
falling behind first world countries already? why?
because you pay 45% less for gas then we do in europe? or 64% higer wages you get then in EU?
or what 1st world countries are you talking about?
tell me how much you pay for heating/cooling of average hausehold per year and compare it to it's income. let's start there.
This is an argument for nationalism and protectionism. Fuck the globalists. We're not all one human race with one global market. We are many different competing civilizations with different cultures and different forms of government. Slapping massive tariffs on imported goods to inventivise rebuilding America's hollowed out manufacturing center that had once enabled a thriving middle class is economically and morally justified.
The economically illiterate Democrats are both against the tariffs and for raising the minimum wage, which will result in driving even more labor demand overseas to third world shit holes and trap Americans in a low productivity service economy.
If you create good jobs, wages go up. It doesn't take any decree from the government. Thriving industry and a productive society lifts all boats.
I will help, because I was doing a research recently.
in my country (#czech republic) the average income is 293,853 czk / person and household income is ~673,000 czk (not even 30k usd).
just heating is 2/3rds of energy usage goes to heating. that's roughly 5-6% of all income.
long story short you pay 1% we pay 5%
which one we do next?
disclaimer: I'm not american
minimal wage is retarded concept. no argue there.
but who deciedes what "good jobs" are? why you think the government knows that manufacturing is better then services (for instance)? under protectionism it's politicians and bureaucrats who decides.
imports don't just destroy production. they also release resources for other production.
if you can produce something for $1000 domestically and import it for $800 you save $200 of "productivity" for something else (inflation and taxes aside).
Which one of us is asking for the boots to come help us?
No one's licking boots but you brother.
do you want pre-war comparison?
Before COVID/the war, we were already spending roughly 3–4% of household income on heating/cooling.
You were at ~1–1.5%.
So even back then, the burden was roughly 3x higher here.
what qestions, I don't know how to measure quality of life without money. the only scale we can use for human action
I also pay 60% of my income to the fucking state 😉
it's probably woth mentioning that we don't any more. now it's Trump fighting in middle east
fair comparison is czech vs US. because (most of) EU vs czech is horrifing. we basically get garbage nobody wants for similar prices.
there are researches about that too.
end of whining contest. you get what you deserve. I work hard to avoid average. that's the only way I know to fight this. I have many friends struggeling and many way above my comfort level. life is bitch.
I mean we don't buy oil any more
NATO is not involved in Ukraine at all... If it were, it would be WW3...
people confuse nato with us/west/eu/usedToBeSovietSatelites survival instict.
it's easy to blame nato for everything.
katar and US.
btw. US tries hard to stop contracts between EU and canada.
Ukraine is buying supplies. From anyone that will sell it to them. That's very different than NATO fighting this war. Ukraine is not a part of NATO. If it were then we would all be involved and we'd be sending troops to Ukraine. Selling weapons and being "involved" in the war are 2 completely different things. You are so uninformed it's astounding. All while fronting like you're the one with all the right answers.
Side note, I have been to Prague before. Beautiful city dude.
next time ditch Prague and go to Brno.
we have the biggest penis in Europe 🤣
Brněnský orloj – Wikipedie
XD Good to know. Do they tolerate us Americans well?
I am from Czech and can confirm that taxes for average employee is approx 60%
In detail it is approx 42% income tax. Then there is approx 21% on almost everything, and consumer tax which differs based on type of goods.
Significant tax is on petrol, 1 Galon cost approx 8.2 USD (incl. tax) the combined (consumer and vat) tax is 45.3%
Regarding food, here in Czech we eat shit 😟 , even we can afford to buy expensive food. Based on my experience, you can get high quality food in US, but it is expensive, however at least you can buy it.
no worries. Germans and Brits are the real high bar. and we can out-drink them too 🤣
What country are you talking about? As far as I know, the US is our biggest energy supplier, and we are still friends 🥰 , and I understand that the commie EU infiltrated by the russian orcs must be pain in the ass for the US guys, I feel sorry for that. I hope that after russia will loose the war against Ukraine, russia will collapse and the EU will restore the true free market.
Czech people are one of the most obese in Europe 😄 But I agree, US guys are big 😄
You are brainwashed to worship the state it seems. I'm asking the boots to leave us the fuck alone. You are asking for intervention.
I got you😁 you suspiciously promote russia and putins' 💩 naratives.
The only attacker is russia.
The USA is our friend, and NATO is defense organization useful to keep the russian shit out of the Europe.
I agree, we are fat pigs and the US guys are even bigger.
sorry, I don't speak etatist. go pay your taxes kid
I promote peace too, peace through strength. We need to stop being free riders in NATO and be prepared to defend Europe against russian aggression, and not only depend on the USA, I understand why Trump is pissed off the EU, we collaborated with Russians and now we are fucked. Lucky that Ukrainians are heros and not cowards like Schroeder, Macron, Merkel, or Scholz, I would not call Trump notfriend, he is just frustrated from the fucking EU commies.
also he's an narcistic idiot who has no skills to deescalate or solve anything
Bs detected.
Russia attacked and is still fighting Ukraine.
As you promote peace, pls tell Putin to get get the fucking russian orcs out of the Ukraine and the peace will be the same day.
this guy is a socialist. some of his rhetoric is really marxist.
Because we love freedom so much and we hate russians a lot.
this i take personally. there's no algo. nostr is based on wot unless you live on primal.
It's not. It's political commentary
We trade with friends. Taxes fuck up erything.
so you don't believe in free market, you don't 3ven belive in free will
From the God.
And as it is from already dead animals, it is also vegan and renewable.
AI itself is OK. However, having AI make your arguments for you is wrong when you cannot argue your case on you own. You're solely able to make the basest of assertions, and then throw shit at others. It's childish, dumb and such behaviour deserves only scorn.
you don't understand paying 60% of your income for things you never use.
and little details like that your healthcare is "free" but there's a good chance you will die waiting for it.
and you will if you don't have connections.
Russians started the WWII with Hitler's Germany.
Actually without the supplies and money from the USA, Stalin's russia would loose the war it started.
Hate is a natural protection against experienced abuse. We have over 45yrs of reasons to hate the fucking russia.
i don't belive that and this doesn't offend me a bit. actually it's valid philosophical point. probably first one worth exploring in the whole discussion
No, you made crude insults and copypastaed your google ai response afterwards as if it was both an argument on its own and if its results were indisputably correct and unassailable. It was neither, in the unlikely case that you care to examine what you copypasted.
Why should I spend my time typing out arguments to a person that clearly does not recognise the value of argument, or even what an argument is?
You continue to accuse others of what you are yourself guilty of, and you have clearly misunderstood what a character assasination is, assuming of course that those were your words and not more ai puke. You offer nothing of value. Still solely worthy of scorn.
Stupid ad-hom.
that's retarded
State imposed minimum wage is a crude measure, yet a very necessary stopgap to prevent a sizeable part of the workforce to descend into absolute ruin and tragedy.
The minimum wage exists because the way the societal economy (not solely the US) runs is clearly skewed, unjust and frankly dumb.
you guys should read mises' human action
No general has ever won a two front war. Hitler committed national suicide because he had too big an ego to respect this iron clad fact of history.
that's probably correct. It exists because in socialism the real value is obscured
The cause of death is the illness, subsidiary to this the lack of proper treatment.
Make no mistake, I am not making excuses for the poor treatment of the dispossessed, but by the word violence, most people do understand it as a volitional human act. I do not know your native nationality, perhaps in your tongue it has a double meaning I am unaware of?
I have way back in the day. I had it on my shelf, ended up giving it away.
I am unaware where this socialism is in the present day?
I read all of your Austrian economist books when I was younger. I learned a lot from them but none of it spells unfettered capitalism is the superior way to allocate resources
I understand the temptation to turn to God and explain/simplify everyithing to bible quotes.
but we live here on this flying rock and we have to deal with reality.
people act in a world of scarce resources.
if i don't understand these constraints I will suffer. i refuse to.
True but there are other points there too.
what system allocates them better?
Isn't it part of Misean doctrine to outright reject emperical observations and arguments?
I don't think so. If they can be decomposed to axioms.
But I'm not sure what we are talking about any more.
everywhere. europe especially. canada. and probably 2/3rds of the whole planet.
us soon-ish
I'm sorry but state provided welfare services are not socialism. If it was, the US would be 'socialist' as well, as even the most conservative US states provide welfare and disability payments to its citizens.
😂 as if workers can't be owners of anything and owners don't work for anything.
Pure retardation. At this point I'm not taking this conversation seriously.
To assume central control to correct classes of people is exactly the problem. You worship the state. You just explained exactly that in your own words. You assume there are classes of people and you assume the only way to manage these classes are through lever of central powers. There could not be any more clear an indication of a state at world view than that.
We will teach you one day chap.
You like socialism. Just wake up and admit it buddy.
I didn't want to offend you. but to qote said Mises.
He left a meeting with most libral (in the original meaning of that word) people of that time with:
"You're all buch of socialists"
It was 1947.
Milton Friedman
and that's the very definiton.
in US you were able to offset it for much longer. probably because your governmet sells debt in dollars and devalues it afterwards. now it bites your ass.
How would you describe and IPO? Can I just make my own IPO?
The only thing that has ruined this country is socialism. Socialism undermining capitalism from people like you.
Jew munchkin Zelenskyy is the problem. Ego taller than he stands, doesn’t give a shit about Ukraine (once considered potential home for New Israel). Sends its boys into the meat grinder, exports its girls to the slave trade—he’s just a pimp.
SonIf I start a business that loses money, what do you think the chances are the government approves my IPO?
Maybe I should have said they print "near-money." That's the technical economics term.
I really have no idea. I’m not well read on IPOs and the requirements to issue an IPO. Not to be rude, but is there a point you are attempting to make…I may agree with you if you state it plainly.
* not just Russia: Soviet Union.
Taxes corrupt.
Taxes help mainly the richest people.
I am not privileged, I am a tax slave.
Healthcare, education, insurance, food, and other services could easily be paid directly by individuals, without the government taking its cut to bribe bureaucrats or serve shady corporate decision-makers.
In a world without taxes, human interaction would be based entirely on voluntary trade.
The only area I am unsure could function without state violence is defense against other violent states.
It depends how do you define "your education" and narrow the term "America education"
Housing is a choice, in both the USA and the EU. You can live in a mobile home, under a bridge, or in a million dollar mansion, it is entirely up to the individual.
I would agree that there is an illusion regarding what you actually get from the government. It is a common belief that EU countries have "free" healthcare and the US does not. Nominally, it looks like that. However, in the EU, even if you have money, you can end up dying in a queue for a "free" procedure, whereas in the US you can buy it immediately if you have the funds.
I don't fully endorse either system. I agree that US healthcare costs is high, but we shall ask is why it is so expensive. My suspicion points to overly complicated regulations, which drag expensive lawyers and compliance costs into the equation, as well as the US bearing the high burden of pharmaceutical development that the EU then consumes as a free rider.
Profits corrupt.
Profits help the richest people.
You receive services for low costs due to math.
Healthcare, education, insurance, food, and other services could easily be paid directly by individuals, without corporations taking its cut to bribe bureaucrats or serve shady corporate profiteers.
In a world without profits in essentials, everyone could afford live and thrive.
If everyone was thriving crime and international crime statistically would greatly decline.
You are wrong, it’s very easy. I have family members and many friends who work in healthcare. It’s expensive because there are becoming less and less providers (a few companies buying up everything) AND the main goal of those companies is profit.
Then, you add the cost of health insurance which is also profit driven, denies treatments, and colludes (in some cases is owned by the medical care providers) to continually raise prices of everything, yearly.
Like I said, you are privileged to live in a country where healthcare is included in your taxes. Not saying it’s the best, but you are light years ahead of US.
Then define corruption and profit.
Profit is the what’s left over after all materials and labor has been paid. It is above and beyond what was necessary to produce.
Corruption is abuse by those with control and/or power for personal often fraudulent gains.
Taxes cannot provide services at a lower cost than the free market. Let me illustrate this with a simple example. Please note that this is just a basic math illustration and does not account for opportunity costs or the theory of subjective value, but it works well as a straightforward figure.
Imagine you are the government. You tax two people, taking $1 from each, giving you a total of $2.
Because you do not work for free, you take 50 cents of each dollar collected as your administrative wage.
You then go to the market to purchase a service, leaving you with $1 to provide that service for your two citizens.
As a result, you can only afford a service valued at 50 cents per person.
In a world without you as the government, those same two individuals would each have their full $1 to buy the exact same service independently.
This explains a bit why we express different views.
My definition of profit is a delta between the purchase cost and the realized price.
Also I define corruption differently, corruption for me is abuse of delegated power in benefit of the corrupter or subjects connected to the corrupter.
A contrario, misusing one's own funds or resources is not corruption, rather, I simply call it a personal transaction or a trade if consensual between two or more subjects.
Profit isn't a bad thing 😁
I read that there is less and less providers, sounds like there is less competitors, I assume that the cause is the big buying small and there are no new providers starting their business.
Why do you think people does not start new businesses in health care?
Let me give you an example of how privileged we are.
I care about animals. When a cat or a dog needs medical care, I just take them to the vet. Veterinary care is much less regulated here in Czechia. You can get a good vet even after 7pm, and some have 24/7/365 service. When you get there, the place is nice and clean, they smile, they examine the animal, and if necessary, they can do blood tests, an ultrasound, and an RTG during the same visit. When you leave, you have pretty much complete test results, a diagnosis, and a treatment plan. If you need an MRI, you can get it in one to four days. The price is reasonable, and you can pay in cash or by card.
Compare it with my 80yrs old friend, who had to wait three months for an MRI, while an ultrasound took two weeks, same as RTG. Blood tests take two to four days. She had to wait three months for an appointment for a specialist examination, and then it was canceled two days before the appointment with no explanation. Now she has to wait another three months. All of this is almost "free", if you subtract wasted life or if you survive the queue. Actually, in the majority of hospitals, you cannot pay for care in cash or pay to skip the queue. The only solution is to know people who know whom to bribe.
Flawed premise from the start.
Labor plus materials equals cost
Labor plus materials plus 20% profit margins equals capitalist cost
No numbers needed, which one has more costs affiliated and will cost more?
Yeah, I don't think I did a very good job explainibg it. That was like a shitty first draft. I need to work on that. 🤣
Spoken like someone with money. Those people do not have free time to learn a new skill. They take second jobs. And no. They also can't JUST get abetter job. They are unskilled and uneducated workers with years of experience on one thing and that thing barely pays.
Poverty is a trap. The more poor you are the more you spend and the less you make.
A friend of my mom has been switching jobs for 10+ years. She still cannot afford rent and lives with her pares who also cannot afford rent.
I do have money. And I wasn't born with it. Spoken like you don't know how to make money. Seems more like a skill issue.
I was born to a single mom in credit card debt. Stop blaming everything else for being poor and actually do something about it.
Her problem would be switching jobs constantly. Pick a valuable skill and become an expert at that. Management pays well and if you have a shred of competence it's not that hard and there's a lot of management jobs. It's not that hard to work your way there over a few years in a fast food joint. Average McDonald's manager makes 50-60k. Then there the trades. It's not exactly rocket science to learn plumbing or electricity for home install. There are plenty of options. You just have to stop wallowing in your own self pity long enough to get off your ass and work for it.
Your whole diatribe is antithetical to proof of work. While you make the exact opposite case.
I have money. Because I have proof of work.
Proof of work is not just digging any ditch and expecting to be able to afford to live off it it. Work is not created equally nor will it ever be valued equally .
Now you're just being obtuse. Or you can't read. Did you miss the part about how there is no such thing as a country with 100% of one system? It is a constant struggle to maintain or change the systems in place. You would like to change the system in place to more socialism. Which is what I'm arguing. People like you have been fighting the free market capitalist system since the early 1900s and it's all gone to shit over the last 100 years because we have some nothing but trend to total state control and survailence and your solution is to give daddy government even more control to "fix it"
Because they were slaves dumbass...
I didn't say fuck you. I say you have a problem. And I say the state is not a solution to that problem.
I'm not trying to be macho or whatever you think. I'm just saying we live in a fallen world and everyone has their own battles to fight. Begging central powers to "do something" has only ever made things worse for people. Throughout all of history.
But stay blind. I tried to help but you won't listen. Go cry some more about your situation since you seem convinced you're stuck.
Which one is buddy? Is America free market capitalism or not? Do you have a percentage?
Or wait, you have a god complex with capitalism…all things that are good are capitalism and all things bad are socialism. Fucking idiot kid.
The State is the only reason you get the enjoy the life you are living right now. But stay blind and keep complaining that the State hurt poor little you. Kid.
I assume there are classes? There literally are and your refusal to acknowledge that is sad. I can tell that you’re an inexperienced still wet behind the ears kind of guy.
Oh and because they were slaves is not the answer you dip shit kid.
We know they were slaves. Where did the value they create go? What did their skill and hard work get them? You daft fucking cunt. You wouldn’t last 8 hours in South Carolina summer heat/humidity even working in the shade bitch boy.
Which is it?. Pick one of your arguments:
A) if you don't make enough switch jobs
B) she is not making enough because she switched jobs
Not everyone can be a manager.
Proof of work has NOTHING to do with what we have been talking about.
proove that economic calculation is possible in socialims.
without that, as you know because you read it, you can't allocate resources and will misallocate capital and labour towards nonsense.
tested for 40 years in our country.
I never said that they were mutually exclusive. Damn I’m kind of starting to feel bad for you because you’re not good at this and you sound confident about it. You can’t even tell that you should be embarrassed
do you know who Karl Menger was?
You asking me? Of course! And I assume you mean Carl not Karl
Ok allow me to rephrase instead. The claimed benefits of capitalism do not come close to offsetting the detrimental damage it causes. It produces a net negative outcome in a relatively short time period.
What is you point? Proof of work is unrelated. Nobody want to be paid too much for doing something unproductive.
What we want is to be paid a livable wage for working 8 hours. If the work we are doing is not worth that, then the position should not exist.
If I you want me to spend 8 hours a day picking rocks then it's clearly important. Because if it wasn't I could do it every other day or less.
The task being simple does not mean that the task is not important
And the higher ups are the ones that make way to much money for how little they produce. Not the bottom ones that do all the work
Okay, China in 40 years has climbed to the top in every major economic aspect. There, done.
Now you prove that capitalism does not misallocate resources, lead to centralization of control, make an extreme wealth gap, cause wars, and corrupt other countries. Annnd go!
no I'm asking the communist guy who still pushes labour theory 100 years after it's been refuted.
(fyi: it's really Karl)
Personally, no. Read him, yes.
Do you know who Dr. Richard Wolff is?
Capitalism is just freedom of exchange. It's literally what people just do. Socialism is exerting central control over production. or the opposite of individual freedom. So your distillation is correct. And that would be backed by thousands of years of human history. If you don't want to admit that I think it makes you the idiot.
I don't worship anything but the truth. Some call that God. The only thing I worship is God.
china climbed because of freeing the market rules and letting it work.
both europe and china converge towards each other poles.
the decline in europe gravitating towards economic obsolence and china thriving when gov. allows is an empiric proof.
capitalism doesn't do any of those things. you confuse capitalism with interventionism practiced since delusional economic theory of Kaynes.
I didn't say there weren't. Of course there are classes. There aways will be because we are all created equal in value but not in anything else. I just don't assume that the way to fix it is by entering control from a central power.
Lol I love further south than that and did framing cleanup on new construction for a few summers. I can take the heat bud. I actually love the heat. Fuck the cold you got me there.
You are comparing literal slaves to modern day employees. That's why your question is retarded.
And I'm supposed to pay for you to live even if you do work that is not valuable to me?
so you don't believe even mainstream economic theory, that value is subjective, and still push labour theory?
(and yes I've read some of his work. he's a marxist who still use same false claims ad Marx and other did)
Look at your first two sentences. You claim that socialism is exerting central control over production. Tell me exactly who owns production in capitalism? Just answer the one question…keep it simple.
Again. If the work you want me to do is do important that I have to work 8hs 5 days, theb clearly it's important. And I should be able to live doing that. If it's not that important then it should not be all day or not every day.
Here’s the capitalism god complex. So China…who literally claims to be communist has only achieved success by doing capitalism things. While, hold on to your hat; America who claims to be the beacon of free market capitalism has lost to China in the last 30 years…because of socialism.
You fucking people amaze me at your mental gymnastics.
Value is subjective. Labor is the only way anything is produced…it literally is Proof of Work.
Dr. Wolff who has a PHD in economics, study Austrian economics at multiple top schools, criticizes capitalism using historical data. If you did read him, you would know he pushes for Worker Cooperatives as a solutions. Do you know what worker cooperatives are?
compared to what?
This is a retarded way to measure the value of work.
Individuals, corporations, private entities.
Not the government.
You can just Google that brother. You don't need me to answer it.
yes, that's been tried too. In Italy and partially in Spain. He tries to make a case for syndicalism. Which is probably even less viable then pure socialism.
Did you just say you did “framing clean up for a few summers” and then compare that to “take the heat”.
You threw some goddamn 2x4s and vinyl siding in a dumpster for a summer job and you compare that to picking cotton for 10 plus hours, every day, and other hard physical labor for 60 years or until your back gave out.
I knew you were a kid by what you were saying…now I know you are a spoiled kid with a cushion job too.
Two fucking summers of picking up trash and you are done rugged individual who bootstrapped his way through life. This is hilarious and sad at the same time. Kid.
Why is that?
No, no it’s not. That’s actually how you value anything. Is it essential or not? Is it necessary, or not?
So you would rather one person control the means of production instead of all the workers in that company control the means of production?
Seems like you are “exerting central control over production”. Kid, you are falling all over your own words. Remember when I warned you that you are attempting to defend an indefensible position…yea, there you go.
Maybe it's worth mentioning Chinese people are also not very free at all... And China has massively misallocated resources. Have you seen their mega cities with no one living in them?
Misallocated resources happens in capitalism when sociasts come and try to tell everyone else how they need to solve the problem rather than letting the market solve it.
You know why your healthcare is ass? Because the government joined the industry in 08 and it has only gotten worse. Same with Housing.
Why don’t you want to answer? I know the answer without google.
C’mon, just say it for those in the back who can’t hear very well.
You say tried like it fails. Do worker cooperatives fail every time?
There is no such thing as "the workers own the production"
The government owns production and doles out to the workers "according to their needs" just like you want.
Which leads to millions of people starving to death because a central powers can not direct a dynamic market.
Hello Soviet union.
I answered... Then I showed you you could have just googled it.
How is individuals, corporation and private entities "one person"? It's not. It's actually closer to what you want, which is you get to own whatever you make. You are entitled to the fruit of your labor. That is capitalism. All it means is you get to name the price of your labor and good you make. It doesn't mean you get to demand whatever dollar amount you want for that labor or product. People decide that. The same way you do when you go to the grocery store and decide what you're going to eat this week.
Go look up home ownership in China verse US. China is communist and U.S. is free market capitalism.
China has exceeded in allocating resources and U.S. has squandered it.
How is our healthcare ass because of socialism while other more socialist countries with universal healthcare are better? Seems like more socialism in healthcare is statistically better.
What premise is flawed?
I am sorry, I really not understand your question nor your example. Please explain how it relates to my example.
I don't want to fight about particular figures here. I tried to demonstrate that we don't need to feed the government to tell us what is good for us.
If, and only if we need the government, then only for defense against other governments.
Think about it. Imagine hiring someone and telling them "we can offer x. I know you can't leave off of this but we still want youto work for us".. that.. does not make sense. Why would they take this? The only reason is that they don't have a choice. Which is why it's wrong. All of it
Seems like you just have a problem thinking about 2nd and 3rd order effects of these decisions.
Oh shit, guess what, the kid is confidently wring again! In worker cooperatives the workers own the means of production…it quite literally is the definition.
If central powers can not direct dynamic markets, how does a private owner of a business manage their business?
they did fail, so ...
anyway, I don't believe in historical school, it's good to study it, but you can't really know what all individuals did back then.
Syndicalism can't work (who owns the investments and risks for instance?).
Problems aside, why you'd prefer an out right cartel dictating prices?
I’m not looking it up. I know. You never answered.
Wrong again, whoever owns means of production has all the control. If you want proof of work and decentralization at the same time, you need to advocate for worker cooperatives.
The only variable capitalism adds to an economic equation is profits. Since we know that to be true, if you eliminate profits, things cost less. Period.
I demonstrated that we don’t need profits to have a function market place and clearly showed how that also saves money/resources.
You trust the government with top of line weaponry to protect you…but not to deliver your mail. No logic there.
Please enlighten me. Indulge my curiosity.
because they literally did that. in 70s they
decolectivized agriculture
allowed non-state businesses and profit incentives
allowed foreign ivestments
opened international trade
in 90s they privatized almost all small and meduim size businesses and allowed people to freely move
that's just from top of my head, I'm sure I forgot half of their deregulation
I can give you literally thousands of worker cooperatives still operating today. But hey, just look up one, Mondragon.
Now, when you say cartel, you mean only a few “bosses” who own the only handful of companies within a market? 😂
You are right and they highly regulate the big aspects like life essentials. They also own large portions of the big companies or outright regulate their every move.
But, yea, let’s go with “everything gudest is muh capitalism and everything scarewy is socialism/communism”.
You do know how absurd that sounds to people with a IQ over 120, right?
I don't trust the government at all, but I just dont have a solid solution for how to defend myself against the aggression of other governments. The problem is that because another government has a monopoly on violence, it has unlimited resources to wage war against me.
I don't know them, I'll look it up.
when a syndicate owns some sort of vertical their incentives are: high wages, fewer hours, higer price of whatever they do.
customer wants the opposite: lower prices, better quality, more things available
how does a worker control / syndicate align those? they don't. they act as a cartel.
Yes you do have a solid solution on how to best defend yourself. It’s called coming together with other individuals, sharing and pooling resources for a common goal. You did it! You came full circle and proved that socialism/communism CAN work! Congrats!
and I think you mix two things. internal structure is irrelevant. you can have companies co-owned by their staff. usually workers don't want to bare the risks. they don't use their houses as collateral. you as a business owner do.
That also removes incentives to risk any capital. to innovate.
Well that’s not true at all. You need to research and study more on worker cooperatives.
For example, in the good ol USA we have power companies that privately owned and we have cooperatives where everyone owns. Guess who has the cheapest power, best service, and highest paying wages for employees?
I think you romanticized one and degrade the other. Workers have been propagandized into believing the “boss” takes all the risk and their job is too hard. But, in actuality, worker cooperatives function very well by letting the natural strengths of each individual spread the work load to those most capable.
Not only that you can have collective collateral or, even better, grants!
The worker is the one actually risking something by trusting one person to not make a decision that losses their job all the while sacrificing their body and time to have no control over said decisions.
This is also a false narrative. You do not need profits to incentivize innovation. Innovation comes from the need to solve a problem. Which historically happens by those doing labor, well, since they are more intimate with production.
Would you like examples of innovation that has occurred without profit incentives?
see my other comment.
I argue that you can have that inside a free market. No one cares how you organize. If you have customers and a profit. without profit you can't save nor invest.
It works because there are still price signals from outside of your silo.
(also there is no such thing as "private owned" in socialism)
nobody said that innovation is impossible without profit
without profit it's realy hard to say which problem should be solved first with limited resources.
I disagree. If how you value work, but not everything. Going to the cinema is not essential not necessary. Doesn't mean it should be free
I never said you can’t have a free market. You factually cannot have a free market WITH property rights.
Incorrect, within labor costs is everyone’s compensation. Profits is what is above and beyond the cost to produce. If you studied worker cooperatives, you would know any “profits” go out as dividends or distributed back to the workers.
You can have privately owned companies in socialism, just not pertaining to life essentials or public commodities.
You save and invest your compensation.
grants from whom?
worker doesn't have a gun to their head unless you live in a socislst state (like my mother, grand mother and uncle)
The only way resources would be limited is if one person or a small group of people control all the resources. Capitalism.
The Worker Cooperative, Charities, Organizations, any governing body…hell anyone can grant money. I just gave a friend some building materials at no cost today…that’s a type of grant. lol
resources are limited. if they weren't we wouldn't need caputalism - the framework for allocating scarce resources.
if you don't believ this premise, our discussion is pointelss.
where do they get the money?
Resources are limited, if they were not, we wouldn’t need to allocate them for longevity, using a frame work that focuses on needs instead of profits.
If you don’t believe this premise, your model is unsustainable.
Compensation from their labor would be my first guess but you would need to be more specific. I know I get my money from compensation of labor.
needs are communicated through prices.
prices make sense only on a free market.
circle closed.
What happened kid, brain started overheating when you had to put together a cogent response without meme talking points?
before I answer, is all labor equal?
Holy shit, did you just Eastern European mic drop on your own opinion. Here watch again:
Needs are communicated through verbal or non verbal means. (I can get more nuanced)
Prices are determined by subjective value, scarcity, and demand.
Circle open.
No.
I don't mean that prices are how humans literally communicate needs. I mean that market prices communicate information about relative scarcity and people's real demand across a decentralized economy.
Telling someone that I need something communicates a desire. it doesn't tell millions of strangers how scarce that something is relative to something else.
what resources should be redirected toward producing it or what opportunity costs doing so has.
And saying, prices reflect subjective valuation, scarcity and demand is not a refutation, that's why prices contain economically useful information.
I argue that under socialism or syndicalism you just miss that information.
I feel like I'm back in our collage economy discussion club 25 years ago again 🤣
man, we obviously won't agree.
peace 🤟
So you avoid my question. Write a big response that we mostly agree on, then make a statement of opinion that socialism can’t provide market dynamics…then you want to peace out.
We agree on a lot, but your capitalism religion has indoctrinated you into believing it is the one “true” way. When, as the whole discussion has pointed out, it’s not. Not only have I provided resources, and real life examples to disprove your opinion, you continue to show that you are not well read in anything other than pro capitalism texts. So, what do you expect your stance would be …only pro capitalism. Good day, and I wonder how much your college tuition costs you? 😂
Communism cannot work. It has been proven both theoretically and empirically, unfortunately, at the cost of hundreds of millions of murdered souls.
I don't even get how you could jump from my thoughts on state violence and aggression against group of free individuals to the conclusion that I somehow believe communists can save the world.
no, the whole discussion did not point to that.
poisining the well, ad hominem, genetic fallacy you exercised them all. congrats.
With assumption that one can remove profit, what I don't think is possible, forcibly removed profit would remove incentives to do anything.
You just proved it can work. No, it has not be proven to not work and no it has not murdered hundreds of millions souls. The typical number is 100 million, you just arbitrarily bumped that up. Curious, do you know where that 100 million figure first popped up…I do.
Has the tenets of capitalism ever caused murders?
Never said you thought it could save the world . Christ, do you read? But you did agree that it works.
lol, that’s right buddy, keep projecting.
That's not violence
Okay.
That’s funny! Thanks for sharing!
What specific barriers do you mean?
Here in Czechia the biggest barriers are the government regulations.
Mayor Mamdani, a socialist, has been removing unnecessary permits and regulations that only make starting or running a small business harder or more costly.
This is a real life example of Capitalism using its capital and influence to create barriers of entry to eliminate competition while monopolizing markets.
Would you like more real life, historical examples of capitalism using its influence to create barriers of entry?
I can also give you real life, historical examples of Capitalism using private or public armies to kill competition or keep their cheap labor from revolting. Would you like those examples too?
Why do I always answer every question you have thoroughly but you get to skip over mine? Have you ever read Adam Smith and his warning about Capitalism?
Here’s a real life example:
China EVs has far surpassed anything U.S. manufacturers have produced in efficiency, price, comfort, and longevity.
I’m interested to see if you have a logical reason as to why this is?
Because China locks it's people inside for months whenever it feels like it needs to. You can get a lot done when you treat people like numbers. You really just love socialism and communism. I don't feel the need to argue anymore. If the evidence of it's failure is not enough, then nothing will be. Some people would call you a useful idiot.
Hey the kid is back! Unfortunately, still not educated…awww.
Kid doesn’t feel the need to argue anymore but he stops by to drop his dogma two cents even though nobody asked.
I love facts, historical or current data. You love capitalism…and you have no idea why.
When you say evidence of failure…is this evidence in the room with us right now?
I’m not comparing it to anything. I’m making a definitive statement.
net negative is inherently comperative.
so again, compered to what? no economic activity?
Net negative means the pros don’t outweigh the cons. Pros means benefits. Cons means the opposite. Net negative means that the result is worse than when you started. “Compared to what” is only relevant if I made a claim to a better alternative. I haven’t done that here. I hope this helps you understand my statement.
Hope everything is okay, I was really looking forward to your response.
no