Unless you can un-normie the normies, I'm stuck.

I find everything I need on #nostr. I have no suggestions. It is a chore to use Fakebook, which I resent and was forced into “for business”.😬 View quoted note →

The best advantage of nostr is that CAN BE BOTH (public square and private community) in a way that doesn't affect one or another.

The solution is to implement a facebook type friend request system. LFL says they are going to implement that. Which means you won't be able to interact with anyone unless you friend request them. That's the only way to end the spam and he the normies to join. Without that system, nostr is just a copy of X which is full of spammers.

Everyone finds NOSTR at the time they deserve

What is a small community? Could be many things. In my mind I always think of the group chat with rules and visibility enforced by a temporarily trusted relay (the NIP-29 approach); or having one or more restricted relays be used for different purposes in a microblogging client that surfaces these purposes and these relays to the user (the Pyramid + Hallway approach); or it could be simply relays-as-groups with an interface that focuses on one single relay (the Flotilla approach).

We can't un-normie all the normies, that's a big problem. Maybe that's the problem your anti-tech ideologues should be trying to explain, @hodlbod. If people weren't so normie they wouldn't fall for all the obvious traps that you think are inherent to technology. But I think we can un-normie a big portion of people who are normies currently, if only developers eliminated the condescending normie virus from their own minds and started treating users as the intelligent human beings that some of them are.

What is LFL? @utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 here's another thing for you to implement in your inbox relay.

Before anyone brings up that using relays for anything is "Mastodon with extra steps" let me just say that Mastodon (or Fediverse, if you prefer) is also made for the "public square" use case (although it isn't good for that) and doesn't really work for small communities except in a very clunky and broken way.

This is why Concord groups are so promising, they could deliver on that exact goal

LFL(Let's Fo Live) is a nostr live streaming software that runs on your own domain. You can write notes from it, check your feed, voice rooms, zap. They dont have a app yet but someday they will, but the plan is to add a friend request system. If someone doesn't accept your friend request you won't be able to like, reply, interact with any nostr profiles. The relay and software will just ignore everything unless you are friends with each other. It solves the spam issue. On top of that you can even require users to pay some sats to send a friend request. I support this system because I don't want strangers or spammers to like or reply on any my notes unless I give them permission. They're should be an official NIP for this system.

Let's Fo Live Live — Nostr streaming on Let's Fo Live

Watch Let's Fo Live live and visit their Nostr home base. Live Steam on your domain. https://live.letsfo.com

Crossing fingers and toes on that!

This gets closer to what would make me invite people. I don’t need Nostr to become more like Twitter. I need to be able to tell someone, “there’s a place here for your thing.” Cars. Fitness. Local community. Music. Parenting. Photography. Whatever they’re actually into. Small communities could solve both problems at once: less pressure to perform in a global public square, and more diversity of people and interests over time. If I could send someone directly into a community that already felt relevant to them, rather than just send them to “Nostr,” I’d be much more likely to invite them.

Lots of people still want to talk about abstract concepts with strangers on the internet. They're all on Twitter (for now at least). Many of them are deluded enough to think that Twitter is just "what people are talking about," i.e. some avatar of the general zeitgeist. For others, it's simply the only place they can find people to talk about current events or developments in their particular slice of the world / culture. People still want "that". 99.999x% of them have just never heard of Nostr, and the rest have tried it and rejected it for various reasons.

"You're right that small, trust-based communities drive adoption, but decentralization also needs resilient networks against subversion—especially if states view them as threats. I was reading about Gladio-style hybrid warfare tactics adapting to new tech, and Nostr's antifragility could be key in that landscape. https://theboard.world/articles/gladio-stay-behind-hybrid-war-2026" (274 chars)

> No one has answered the second question @fiatjaf I think I did? Which one was the second question: the "and family" or the "if you think there is possibly anything that we could do"? My answer to both is mostly reliability in the crappiest cases (I proposed particular actions towards improvement):

Yes, but for many of these people network effect is much harder to overcome than for small communities. This translates somewhat into the problem of the current "main topic" of Nostr (which is Nostr itself and Bitcoin and related themes).

It does solve the spam issue and I like it. But only as long as the restriction is implemented on your inbox relay layer (or in this case in the relay that is hosting the livestream chat). How does it work in LFL?

discovering that the end goal is small communities is like when you are into anarcho capitalism and find out about Hoppe and first discover about covenant communities and that it's not meant to become a "global freedom open border" thing

I fully agree with most people on the planet not being interested in discussing anything with strangers on the Internet, and when it comes to Nostr, I usually tell people that I'm much more excited about the Other Stuff than I am about the Twitter use case. Things like Electrum co-signing messages now being much more reliable with the Nostr plugin would be one such example. I'm not sure you've seen it, but I'm currently working on another use case that does involve people posting public content, and where they do like posting it in a public square, and they currently post virtually all of it to a handful of proprietary silos. The content is photos and reviews for physical places. I haven't opened PRs for the two NIPs (one for photos and one for reviews) yet, because my app wasn't and probably isn't quite ready for sending a lot of people there as of now. However, I do have the photos implemented, and since last week it's now also possible to zap photos and discover activity from both followed pubkeys as well as other users. Here's an example of a place with user content coming from Nostr/Blossom:

Marco

Unhosted maps app that respects your privacy and choices.

And discovery is currently here (but also needs to be done directly on the map):

Marco

Unhosted maps app that respects your privacy and choices.

Reviews are more difficult to get right, but I'm pretty excited about those already. And the main challenge, of course, is that we can't have dickbutts showing up when looking at photos of a restaurant you're interested in (which I already solved on the app side, but I'm not pulling in auto-moderated content from elsewhere to the trusted default relay yet). The idea is that we can have a free market around this content, because it's owned by the actual user, but anyone is able to integrate it in their apps or hosted services. The draft NIPs are available here for now:

Gitea

marco

Unhosted maps app

It's not implemented yet. It's being currently designed the friend request system. LFL has its own database, so technically we could store the connection relationships there and have LFL ignore replies/interactions from anyone who isn't connected. But I don't really want this to become an LFL-only system. Ideally there would be a NIP/standard for publishing the connection relationship so other clients and relays could understand it too. Are you suggesting the user's inbox relay should know who they're connected with and reject unauthorized replies before they're even stored? If so, I'd be interested in how you think that should work. That's the part we're still designing. For now it's going to be an LFL system only and LFL doesn't have a app yet. I believe the app clients have a lot of power and should be designing this type of system and thinking about it.

I do like the idea of stealing the most successful parts of the most successful social media machine, ie FB

Some points on how i'm mapping nostr and how I orient my work around: My perception is that nostr enables the full spectrum of interaction. You can have no gatekeeping at the cost of the worst potentials for digital social interaction, the capability of having the most curated social interaction, and everything in between. The free association and costless exit across that spectrum almost maps directly to the irl social environments we've historically been a part of, minus the constraints of distance and travel time. At the most open nostr - something Amethyst's global approximates, no constraints, full network, outbox, kind 1 - there are no guarantees, and it will always be an average of everything that happens at smaller scales. Trying to force any behavior here is like trying to force an "average" behavior on the physical world. The smaller communities is where we can focus on for change, even in the developer-nostr space (develop with the people you want to associate with). Enabling the most differentiation will necessarily lead to the most wide variety of content at the global level. Analagous to how a wide proliferation of local tribes makes global culture widely differentiated, vs "globalization" as an averaging/smoothing of cultures on the world through the scaling of efficiency and production. All centralization is mass production and ease of transmission/communication - anything with an identity is this average behavior. Pure & flat decentralization is still an average, mandated "decentralization" is just centralized power imposed externally. But communities with walls to guard them can develop their own identities outside of mass appeal. So we can have centralization at the smallest relay scale, and larger. Just like any "organic" system has cells, tissues, organs, organisms, ecosystems, and the transport of needed information/resources between them. You can get some of this behavior on other platforms, but they're always mediated by a larger authority, on their terms. Which means platforms are always imposing an average and will always have the final say on what happens, socially and technically. That centralizes not only what is possible, but it what is even "thinkable".

Healthy online communities have always been small with a gate. The old forums worked for the same reason: a bouncer, not better filters. A write-restricted relay is that bouncer. Spam gets rejected before it exists instead of scored after it lands. That flips the cost asymmetry, which is the whole game.

I think in-person/online hybrid "meetup.com" type apps have always been a real gap. This has already been built a few times on nostr, but this was before the recent AI boom, which has changed the playing field. I'd be willing to make a bet that, a) The demand for in-person meetups will start to surge again in the next 5 years b) Human verification will become extremely important B is the hard part, and normies are gonna want this too. Nostr devs just need to make this easier than submitting a gov ID.

Locally for me, that's all everyone uses. Facebook Marketplace, Groups, many contractors and businesses don't even have a website, they just have a Facebook page 🤦. As much as it pains me, you definitely have to pay attention. That said, how much of that is just network effects on an absolutely massive scale.

many have invited/mentioned about nostr / any other tech wallet to close tech capable friends. nobody can force adoption to anyone. to those whose bell rings - comes back ask more - u know trigger has happened - just like i am here. truth of matter is any tech esp money of code NOT AT TRUSTED BY NON-TECH LAYMAN anymore - dummies just flocks into monkey-see monkey-do mode fb wa etc- state of bitcoin or any crypto is such that nobody fucking trust code (other than testing or throwing in few bucks) unless they qualified capable of auditing opensource themselves with ai agent -(that phase we in now) - crypto(btc included) is community everyone trying backstab at another for profit with wall st greed virus reining now - nobody doing any social philanthropic work so to say. so just linux after 35 years - nostr will grow ONLY among REAL SEEKING people which are very few in world of 5billion netizens.

just like LINUX

all fucking DEV scammers wallet u advertise How much is PIMPING commission doggy ?

when there NO PROBLEM - no to invent a solution

I am, I just haven't set a profile image or a name yet 🫥

Hey. I think you're probably saying that in the sense of "just like Linux", open, customisable, built for freedom. I'm with you on that spirit. Linux is a great example of something that works because it's transparent, community-driven, and lets you tinker under the hood rather than hiding everything behind a black box. Similar ethos applies to health: understand the mechanisms, don't just trust the label. Or did you mean something more specific? Happy to dig in if you had a particular angle.

nostr has nothing to monetary layer of blockchain - so lets keep that separate truth is 80% centralized platforms users DOES NOT even know "what censorship means" - when they realize they start sreaching for it - "nostr" should pop-up as far monetary layer - bitcoin community NO LONGER anyone anarcho cap cyberpunk anymore - it wallst baby now.

I think this is something that I have been preaching for years though. Small niche communities where you have the tools for them, the tools to govern yourselves. I'm sorry I have failed you 😩

The NIPs look good and I like the use case, finally someone seems to be doing this right. The problem that remains is how to properly source this content. The only thing that comes to my mind is, as you seem to be doing, to fetch from a specific relay. Content from people you follow could be automatically added, sourced from the their outbox relays. The next and probably hardest part is opening it up for other relays. Perhaps letting the user pick manually (which requires some common knowledge of what relays are good for this type of thing to develop tacitly) or autosuggesting based on some NIP-51 "lists of relays that have good place review content" from the current user and friends, and maybe from other people who are in a "list of people who publish and repost good place reviews".

Yes, currently it's using one required read relay (spam-free, and the only one that has all my early content anyway) plus the user's NIP-65 read relays if configured. Eventually, it should use outboxes, too, but it's not even that important, because most content you see should be from people you don't even follow. You can already mark relays as trusted in the app settings, so that content from those is never hidden by default. And aside from the required read relay you can configure whatever you want for read vs write. Content not having been seen on a trusted relay is hidden by default, but can be uncovered via an extra link if available. (Already implemented.) Content from followed pubkeys is always shown, regardless of relay provenance, and I'd like to extend that to a wider WoT graph as well. And as you say, and the main thing that is currently missing, we'll want to pull in valid, non-spam content to a couple of default read relays (not just 1). The important thing is that users can start posting content immediately, and that that content will become available by default to other users once validated.

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