Replies (41)
The real enemy is the fiat system. I don't know why it has to go down like this.
Every preacher gotta have his own congregation. 🤷♂️
This is the "imperial strikes back" moment of big blockers. There was a chance to go back to pre taproot bloat, while still enjoying taproot, and reinforce the op return limit that has been in place for most of bitcoin's life. It all went down the drain on Saturday.
Still, if it had been rejected by a USARF, then it would have been bad but you could argue node runners and plebs are still in charge. What happened instead is that miners demonstrated they are in charge now. They ultimately decide what changes go in (bitcoin core ones) and which do not (bip110)
Go rewatch that old video by Andreas to an Ethereum crowd, "the difference between I won't do that and I can't do that". The State can now coopt bitcoin at will with 6 or 7 phone calls.
A hard fork is required now as an insurance policy. While it exists, the State is incentiviced not to abuse their control on Bitcoin too clearly or to fast, or people might jump off their coopted chain.
If it is not there, then you have no choice and the State pretty much owns you again.
Don't you see it?
It's an old meme, but it check out.
The market decides winners.
Because we know the fabian tactics they use to infiltrate and subvert ideas.
Is Bitcoin immune from subversion?
If Bitcoin is as dangerous to the state as we think it is, will there not be attempts to attack it? If so, is subversion of an idea is even more effective than killing the people who holds that idea? I believe it is. What do you think?
If there is an attempt to subvert Bitcoin’s idea, what could it be?
Bitcoin is censorship resistant data storage?
We already have censorship resistant data storage, that is the literal Internet.
What could suggesting Bitcoin is just data, do to Bitcoin’s purpose as money?
Just like how the market decided fractional reserve banking wins over full reserve banking, and when the consequences of a bust comes due, the market asks the government to step in to bail out the system to prevent a system collapse.
Is the free market in the room with us now?
Y'all need monero.
At least every can mine it, BlackRock won't touch it and no one will even know you use it.
Or you know, this.
This is so epic and poetic.
FreedomMoneyIsFuture
From now on only love and empathy is allowed in Corecoin.
No more toxic carnivore rednecks.
Bad words should be banned along with high emotions and personal attacks.
Anything that can be perceived in negative way is a slander.
Truth does not matter.
1984 and onwards.
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The real enemy is when other people can control you
the difference is that bitcoin cash confused a lot of newcomers but nobody except the founders and maybe 17 people on twitter are going to fall for bipcoin
but to be honest it works both ways. the personal attacks on the bip110 crowd has been fucken disgusting too. both sides need to take a look at themselves and decide how to provide more unity than division.
major arguments will just put new people off. they don't even understand bitcoin itself yet walk into a space where they're forced to choose sides on something they know nothing about.
as far as Im concerned both sides have points to think about. while the 110ers might have been extreme in their doomsday predictions, its still worth bearing in mind and having at least some options on the table if the bloat starts getting out of hand
exactly. play the ball, not the man.
have the conversation about the actual product. unfortunately i5s too much like politics and "your not on my side so you're a cunt and anything you say is obviously wrong".
the bitcoin community has a bit of growing up to do, its still like a school playground. my dad could beat up your dad!
Is the market in the room with us now?
I'd argue there is no regulated market that deserves that name. Bitcoin/Monero are market enablers. Darknet markets chose Monero. Black markets still favour cash and political deals.
Satoshi knew this. When I started with Bitcoin in 2010. It was clear that Bitccoin could fit many different things.
It then started to kick out, Monero people, Ethereum people, Bitcoin Cash people, BIP110 people.
Today it's less money than ever. It's more captured than ever. If you take away the branding. Trying to reintroduce it into the "market". People would laugh it off as an epic shitcoin.
I am not the one to judge if Wallstreet has a real usecase for Bitcoin other than fleecing the plebs and holding back a monetary revolution that would mainly hit them.
But that's where we are.
what do you mean "fall for"? as far as I can tell the intent was never to create a separate chain but a debate over the rules on the chain.
at a high level it looks like 20% of nodes wanted bip110, 80% were apathetic as there was no clear rejection of it, and the miners said we'll decide for you.
whats happened now is the likes of the core devs have been given the green lught to make changes unilaterally and not enough peoole give a fuck to push back.
exactly the same in our politics where not enough peoole stand up to governments so they push through whatever laws they want.
the fact there wasn't a sensible debate, just a shouting match, should concern all bitcoiners.
I'm a carnivore and proud redneck. gfy
Those people kicked them selves out.
no, the market decides control and influence. that's not the same as winning
I don't think that's what happened.
Bcashers proactively formed BCH to preserve the Bitcoin they deemed to be more closely aligned with the whitepaper mainly over SegWit (not the block size).
It got attacked two more times. First with BSV and then with ABC.
There were no sidelines or in other words, if you were at the sideline you likely didn't vrecognise the enormous effort in censorship and sock puppeting in favour of Core.
As far as I can tell the thing most criticised by big blockers at that time was the censorship of the most important Bitcoin coordination channels. Gauging the atmosphere I bet this was in the end the contributing factor we did not get bigger blocks on BTC like Adam Back proposed (2 - 4 - 8 Mb today)
At least that is something that did not happen with BIP110 since the field decentralised itself.
So the defeat feels much more organic and not something surprising for me as an outsider.
BIP110 lacked all the people that already moved to BCH, XMR, (even BSV Dash and Zcash) that once cared for Bitcoin becoming money. The people left will cheer on Bitcoin becoming an IOU/KYC based payment system as long as it shows BTC as denominator (also the transaction gets internally treated as a fiat payment by the merchant).
What that tells us is that Bitcoin reached its end, the sell off phase (for fiat at your beloves Square "merchant" again).
Reinvestment may happen as markets normally don't go down in one straight line. I promoted Bitcoin investment from 2010-2020. I promoted a neutral position In the last years. I personally will promote a orderly divestment strategy from now on.
No grudge. Just market dynamics at play that I can not ignore.
Didn't everyone with such concerns long switch to Monero? This effort seemed like shutting the barn door after the cows have escaped.
That's free markets. You love it. You change it. You leave it.
Bitcoin is what it is. If people still find value in it that's great.
It's just that I do not.
Honest question. Do you think the BIP 110 folks raised any good points outside of the obvious spam is bad?
No disrespect intended by this but some people can't grasp the level of evil in the world. As far as I know it you still don't believe the Coldcard bug was maliciously inserted despite all the evidence and coincidences.
You strike me as someone who is at least in this narrow aspect naive to the level of evil us bitcoiners face. The level of fiat corruption being presented as bitcoin project grants. The nature of removing incredibly small amounts of liberty so slowly that eventually you have no 4th amendment rights left and very little 1st or 2nd amendments left relative to a hundred years ago. This is the slow boilg frog attack we face in bitcoin as well.
From the perspective of someone who was on the side of BIP 110 the core devs are mostly corrupted with some of them not even owning bitcoin, opensats is corrupted, companies like blockstream are corrupted, Adam Back literally went to Epstein's island and has completely ignored the issue rather than providing a clear explanation which makes him appear guilty of horrendous crimes, no one I know wanted default 100kb op return defaults for config, core restricted peoples ability to question the change on github, coinkite apparently has 10 employees shipping thousands of hardware units and yet you still don't think there was a nation state involved. I mean I could go on and on and on. I could talk about citrea or this new bitcoin security consortium. Miner centralization. etc. etc
To be clear I don't support a POW change. I reverted back to an old knots version. But I am legitimately curious if you think the 110 folks raised any good points and made you reconsider any of your views.
There's only one chain with most Proof of Work
Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System
Satoshi Nakamoto
October 31, 2008
Invented to be USED as money.
Then we are all losers
Hear, hear!
Me too. Cheers bud 🤙
(I have written it as an irony exposing peoples double standards.)
to be fair, I probably should have said gfysister
Because BCH literally split to increase block size, which is what core30 did.
Why are you trying to change the narrative?
And why project? Bip110 people are leaving Bitcoin for monero or forking off to create a new coin.
Why are you still harassing them?
Just let them be, Saylor coin won, good for you, you get to host childporn on your digital real estate.
Other people want nothing to do with your pedo chain, that it, it's over.
100% The ability to create money from nothing and inject it into the economy through corporate handouts creates the techno-feudalism currently growing and consuming the world.
The ONLY way out is to start using BTC/Lightning. Use it as currency whenever possible. Encourage it in your town. Start a business to help get companies set up to accept it. When the money changers loose their power, we will see a era of real peace and prosperity.
This is the way.
No, I don't believe
@N had malicious intent with the Coldcard entropy bug. Perhaps his CTO, but to me it sounds like the CTO wanted a change, the company needed an open source win when they were attacking open source so including an outside contribution seems like a narrow win for them. I believe that was done on purpose. I don't believe introducing a bug to steal bitcoin from people was the ultimate plan. NVK has been in Bitcoin from the white paper. He doesn't need to steal. He has plenty.
Bitcoin Core changed the datacarriersize to reflect the current network use cases and to keep the network healthy. Otherwise more out of band and back door negotiating for blocks would continue to happen.
Ultimately, BIP-110 folks were advocating for education, trying to convince people to switch to and run Knots to hinder non monetary transactions. They could have as easily made the education issue to add a variable to people's existing nodes and Core would function as it had previously. It would have accomplished the exact same thing. And it's even easier to do than running new software. Why wasn't that the educational issues? It would have solved it. The argument was "no one is going to change a variable, they'll just install and use defaults". Instead a harder and more complicated path was chosen and to do the other opponent had to be vilified.
But BIP-110 doesn't even work. People still spam. I've seen BIP-110 valid blocks with spam, songs, pics, and videos.
Could Core be corrupted? Sure. But looking at what Luke is doing, it's much, much easier to see who's corrupt here. Luke is sitting at the top of his Bitcoin fork and trying to control his Bitcoin fork and everyone below him. He wants to be King of Bitcoin. He can't. So he is making his own.
The most wild thing is all of that was predicted a year ago and he's now doing it!
I don't like miner centralization either. Stratum v2 and DATUM seem like amazing solutions. It's why I started mining with Ocean on day one of the company's launch. We need miner and block template decentralization badly.
Small companies shipping thousands of devices isn't odd at all. It's the American (or in this case Canadian) dream for a small business to be successful. And they WERE!
And no, I don't think a nation state is behind Coldcard. It's just a major fuckup being masqueraded as a conspiracy to make us feel better than one of our own could hurt us so badly and mostly because we all trusted when we tell people not to trust. We let ourselves down. It's easier to blame someone else than ourselves.
Every one of us that used a Coldcard and didn't download the firmware and test it and run it through AI before using it or recommending to a friend failed. It might just be that simple if we want to live our lives against a trust model.
Am I wrong and we're in the middle of the then thy fight you phase? Well, we don't know for many years. For now, I'm not going to dwell on it. That negativity isn't good for me or my family. I will use this as I always do to learn and growth. Everything is an opportunity.
I hope this answers your questions.
I couldn’t agree more and it’s well put. Divide and conquer is an old strategy, and we should be wise to it.
I also have been wondering what this repeating patterns teaches us about human nature.
We seem to rarely learn from our mistakes or perhaps we can't see the patterns once we're in them and it's hard to notice until it's too late.
“We can’t see the patterns once we’re in them”. I think there is something to this.
To me this is a humbling recognition to how powerful and dangerous the ego can be.
I don't know anything any Adam Back and Epstein. What did he do? Traveling to the island might not mean he's a bad person, depending on the timeline. Epstein tried to fund everyone and everything. So more context is needed before I'd form any conclusion. Perhaps he went once and released dude was a terrible person and never associated with him again? Definitely worth looking into more.
Odd that Core devs wouldn't own any bitcoin though perhaps it's a morality issue for them and they don't own any because they don't want to be motivated by money? I still think it's odd, but I wouldn't speak ill of them if that was the case.
I never said I was all in and in love with Bitcoin Core. I've always said that they're not perfect either and I disliked their decision less than Knots and BIP-110. Of the two choices, it's an easy choice to choose one that wasn't going to centralize my node and take away my node choices and lead me down a path to censorship.
The “state” as in the US? What about mining distributed in other countries who have opposing interests? Or what about miners setting up shop on a “remote island” outside of the “state”, chasing down cheap renewables?
I get that mining is too centralised right now, but I don’t see how it’s co-opted by the “State” unless you’re taking about some global state or something?
The "State" is whoever controls finance. The government works for finance.
what's the catch buddy
