Why can't we just use Signal or Telegram or something else for DMs? At least for the next 5 years.
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Replies (62)
Giving up on Nostr already?
I use signal as my primary voice protocol. If simplex could replicateitz, I'd push everyone I know to that instead
That's a great idea. How would I do this?
Isn’t every private messaging system working on top of a public routing protocol? Are they all leaky to some extent?
We had a good run
I suggested this a week ago! Vitor shot me down.
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I like DMs… one great use case is bots for reminders and other things. And being able to copy paste content in the same app is awesome.
FOSS end-to-end encrypted messages. I like this idea better than signal or telegram because it doesn't require a phone#
How would you do that without broadcasting yer phone#
Problems are:
* Identity: We need to make it easy to find the right fiatjaf on that other chat app
* Privacy: Many chat apps require phone number
* Inertia: nip04 is expected to be a way to chat with people, so people default to it. You would have to run a reply-bot to push people to whatever other channel you prefer and you have to get all clients on board to retire nip04. I know you try but it's impossible. Even you as our CEO can't do that.
* Integration: I can beautifully mention @signal_and_rage in nip04 but not on Telegram
I think we would need first a plan and then a shame campaign to kill nip04 but I don't see what that plan could look like. It would have to be something better than nip04 and quite frankly I don't see Telegram and Signal as better. By knowing that who chats with whom when being public knowledge, people don't fall for the illusion of this being private as they do with TG and Signal, while there it's just some privileged people that still know all that meta data.
Of course, on nip04 I can also reference all other nostr resources in a decentralized way, without picking a client.
Signal has been my main messaging app for years. Open source, not for profit, and Moxie is a boss.
Keet?
i tried, they are all crap
i use nostr for dms mainly
I am not a networking expert. I cannot accurately answer that.
Is that the only way you can find someone on those other apps? If so, that's a flaw in those apps.
Eventually the Matrix Protocol phopea will subside and Nostr clients will implement Matrix rooms. All Signal's privacy, with no phone numbers or centralized server.
I hate that,
i come here and people give up on nostr
how is it better than any social media if people give it up
As far as i know yeah
Also if i could use those i wouldnt be here.
Dont give up on yourself.
for years i search for a good decentralized network.
I come here and dev tells me to use centralized walled gardens because they have no faith
fiatjaf jesus belive in what you made and dont throw it away
maybe bluesky is an option then, without faith no proyocoll succeeds
That moment if you research years,
finding a good social network
and one of the devs tells you to use propritary/centralized networks
i feel like shit now, thanks fiatjaf
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I think fiatjaf either feels as if the current E2EE messaging NIP is insufficiently secure (which I wouldn't understand) or it just taking the Nostr DAU dropoff pretty hard.
The solution to the former isn't telling people to use centralized/compromised services, however.
*is
Fucking typos.
Hmm
It definitely helps make Signal easier to use, but it is an issue for communicating anonymously. At least the meta data is encrypted and there is perfect forward secrecy.
No, we want an all in one, everything protocol app plz. 🙏
relax
Vitor gave me a chill pill,
thanks man 🤙
I have mental breakdowns easily
This wouldn't be bad.
😂
Does matrix privacy actually compare to Signal? From what I remember there was a lot of metadata leak in matrix...
Yeah it’d be terrible until P2P Matrix is done 
Are We P2P Yet?
Are We P2P Yet?
arewep2pyet.com
What about keet
Almost all of the metadata leak is in the centralized identity server, I am proposing using no identity server at all and relying on public keys ans local contact lists.
Also, there is no alternative, Signal is not an open protocol or a federated network that you can integrate in Nostr clients, it is either Matrix or reinvent your own.
The current metadata leaks in Matrix are due to an architecture that makes every participants’ homeserver store events that reveal chat participants.
If you are concerned about metadata, run your own server, p2p won't help you here because simply put: you still need a hosted highly available homeserver, otherwise the UX and reliability will be unacceptable to most people.
Anyways, this is overstated and exaggerated a lot, people leak metadata to their ISP and their favorite cafe's wifi router all the time.
If anything that can be done it will be added to Matrix, in the meantime, it is the best there is.
All the chat participants should also have their own homeservers, which would be P2P.
Regarding UX, I believe onion-routed store-and-forward is in the works.
IM metadata hasn’t been leaked to network operators ever since the wide adoption of HTTPS.
Glad to see this topic getting airtime
Sir routers can see what IPs you are visiting, regardless of Https, so unless you are using Tor you are leaking metadata, even a VPN is just changing who you are leaking to.
I am all for client side embedded servers/nodes, but you didn't solve much if you still need a store and forward server.
The only difference here is then, users will be custodial of the signing keys instead of the server offering availability. Is that a good thing? Depends, it comes with its pains.
Regardless, metada will still leak, that's the nature of relaying data in a performant way, as in non-onion-routing
Don't get me wrong, all of that effort and work is great, it's by no means a must have and telling people that Matrix has unacceptable privacy issues, while they are using Telelgram and Twitter DM, is a bit unwise.
If you make VoIP chat using webrtc you are leaking your IP to your contact, even in Signal, hell, you are leaking your IP to signal server all the time, it is all tradeoffs.
There is no such thing as perfect privacy.
Are you sure ? Serious Q.
I used to think that too. (Open source and NFP).
But Not anymore. Pls can you check and inform me, if those 2 points are actually still true.
Sorry, I should’ve phrased that differently…
Thanks to HTTPS, metadata leaks don’t happen with:
- centralized IM
- onion routed IM
Oh definitely. I intended to contrast it with Signal.
improved DMs would be great a feature better than what fedi and bsky got, could even make new user stay on nostr
instead of what?
Network effect explains most things...
the problem as with ANYthing is network effect - if nobody is using it nobody wants to use it
I can't even get normie friends off whatsapp onto Telegram. This kind of bleeding edge equivalent will never be adopted, sadly...
if i could zap i would - good answer
have keysend built into Nostr - now there's a thought!
@jack ? thought of this yet?
Both Telegram and Signal require mobile phone numbers for identity. Thanks but no, thanks.
Much better to use something like Matrix?
No man we need to hurry
Yes, I didn't mean Telegram or Signal specifically, but each people using whatever they want.
is this something that cannot be built on top of Nostr in any reasonable way? or are you suggesting perhaps 5 years to structure it?
That's why threma is good, but people don't like to spend 5$ "only" for privacy
Element is a better idea.
Signal requires a telephone, not just a username.
Since people are taking issue with Telegram (no e2ee by default) and #Signal (requires phone numbers), let me suggest another alternative (besides #Matrix):
#SimpleX.
Requires no identifiers whatsoever. E2ee by default. Security audited. Reproducible build on #Fdroid.
Name is horrible and silly, I .
SimpleX Chat: private and secure messenger without any user IDs (not even random)
SimpleX Chat - a private and encrypted messenger without any user IDs (not even random ones)! Make a private connection via link / QR code to send ...
PGP encrypted E-mail works fine for private messaging.
Non of these alternatives do any better in terms of preserving privacy.
Jabber, man. Jabber.