Replies (35)
Mistakes were made surely. What can we do now?
Reduce the witness discount and encourage monetary transactions on L1.
instead of sticking with a design with bad incentives and doing performative op_return shit
So how does that happen in the current climate?
I have heard that bip110 cold break lightning.
Perhaps those who are concerned are simply doing the best thing they can, the thing that will help and has a chance of making it?
it's entirely possible I don't understand the full implications
but I don't see how it breaks LN atm
I definitely don't know. I'm navigating this all with my best judgemt but I am clueless, technically. I am fine with lightning going away if need be.
This. 💯
I think they want to fire Core (rightfully) and they're creating drama
To me, the perceived drama started when core started making changes that many didn't want.
this is all longstanding grudges in the community and ultimately downstream of the blocksize war
Core is retarded but it didn't start last year.
At least LN is a monetary reason to keep a non-ideal feature until it is replaced by a better solve.
Non-monetary = fine if non-threat.
Monetary = usage.
That’s the simplest model I usually fall back to when looking at this.
Threat is real with features that could lead to blockchain-stored content that is a crime by existence.
Threat is lower, but non-zero, on blockchain bloat for node runners gradually reducing node participation and thus reducing breadth of policy adoption scrutiny.
Was hoping this whole controversy would fade away and I wouldn't have to understand the nuances and expose my ignorance. No suck luck 😔
we can just do that monetary usage onchain.
in retrospect, there's no reason to offer a 75% discount to store non-monetary data (sorta) just to enable a science project L2 that we don't need yet.
and considering the total lack of ANY procedure for making changes to the network, I don't think "keeping a non-ideal feature until it is replaced" is a realistic expectation.
pretty much everyone has collectively shrugged their shoulders and said "maybe Segwit was a design flaw but that's what #Bitcoin is now."
In 2017?
Bcashers called out SegWit as a design flaw for various reasons. A good start is questioning ourselves why we didn't listen.
If less people would have fallen for the Core propaganda we could have much nicer things today. InFinITe blocks are obviously bad for decentralisation, but absolute ImUtAbIlITy long before the protocol has been finished is a community failure and a misunderstanding of consensus game theory. Think about privacy, or quantum upgrades that all depend on hard forks.
They happened on other chains, while maximalism claims superiority. Risk reward dramatically shifted from BTC to XMR and BCH.
To add to that, what many people still don't know.
Bcash fork didn't happen over blocksize, which could have happened at any further stage as community consensus becomes clearer.
It happened over SegWit and the neccesity to preserve a state of Bitcoin without it. It came with 8M blocks at that time as the fork was driven by big blockers. From.a legitimacy perspective it was a failure to combine the two things instead of giving more time for a blocksize consensus e.g. conservative dynamic blocksizes as BCH has today.
that’s a great post I’m still learning about Core V Knots. now I have more things to research this weekend any other things I should look into?
Good conversation and points made. Hanshan what do you use for primarily monetary transactions?
I suppose as long as it stays decentralized and we have people having these conversations we will be able to right the ship if needed.
Monero is the network you want to be using for monetary transactions. There was an episode with mordinals and the entire community said, oh hell no, and stopped it immediately.
cheers, I appreciate you saying so 🙏
1) Monero
2) onchain BTC
3) LN
This have me some homework. Thanks for this
it breaks everything that isn't lightning
it justifies the existence of altcoins. you can stop being a bitcoin maxi for starters.
maybe focus on actually improving bitcoin with things like CTV instead of having a tantrum and braking the other kid's toys
What is CTV? You can call it a tantrum if you like. I feel I am just expressing my point of view.
Its funny. I hear both sides referring to the blocksize wars and claiming the other side is like bcash. I'm doing what I did then, following my gut.
ugh
when did you start paying attention to bitcoin development
I am good at reading the people, not code. Been paying attention since 2017.
generally the best plan 👍
I’ve heard of Monero quite a bit now I’ve been meaning to look into it. Thanks for the source I’ll definitely check it out.
Removing the segregated witness would break lightning, but as far as I know the discount could be removed tomorrow with no consequences other than higher fees for opening channels, and in general for spending segwit outputs. In hindsight, the discount was most probably something that could have been avoided, and I'm with you that it should probably be removed.
my understanding is that removing the discount would not only make channel opens more expensive,
which is like "ok fine whatever"
but it would make channel *closes and justice txs 3-4x more expensive. iow, prohibitive in high fee environments, which raises the bar of what channel size it is worth publishing a justice tx for.
so someone can steal their channel partners sats and its too expensive to argue about it.
or maybe you get force closed and most of your balance goes towards paying the fees.
or your liquidity stays tied up in a channel you dont use because it's just not worth it to close at all.
LN overhead increases dramatically without the witness discount afaict.
but having a segregated witness and fixing tx malleability was good on principle.
there were cleaner options for fixing transaction malleability. the maxi crowd got distracted by "would you like segwit or segwit 2x" and they completely fell for it. the kind of persuasive technique that works on a child.
I was firmly against segwit back then and still think it wasn’t the right decision… but wtf would I know lmfao… 🤣
Don't ya love it when people have to make things more complicated than they actually need to be?
