Just either already be qualified for high-paying remote work, or already be a certified electrician. or **already** be in any number of other positions that allow you to have a single income right now. And if you're not already in that position, just somehow have the time and resources to get yourself into that position while you and your family slowly drown in debt and cost of living. E-Z

Again, I said it’s possible not easy. But I suppose everything is hard when you don’t have reading comprehension.

What "just math" advice do you have for someone who does not have the degrees of freedom necessary _today_ in order to jockey themselves into that position? Because I'm pretty sure they'll have the same "it's just math" response for you: "If I spent the time and resources needed to move myself into that position, I'd starve before I got there. it's just math"

Here’s a crazy thought - work more?

lol what a retard. of course I'm talking about the person who simply never thought of this genius idea! not you, of course.

By the way, what’s you’re suggestion? Both parents work, don’t spend but 1-2 hours a day with your kids (where all you’re doing is moving them along to get to the next day, and just continue living that life for decades and not TRY to make a better life? Just accept the situation and allow hopelessness to drive your families future?

What about it is retarded? What exactly am I missing?

there are some people for whom it is mathematically impossible. it's fine to acknowledge that while "possible" for some, it's also "impossible" for others and to have the courage to say "actually, this advice won't work for everyone" - because there are important implications to that in your own worldview and advice. Once you do accept that fact, do you conclude... - "welp, sorry. luck is unevenly distributed - better for the rest of us to thrive and create better options for future people to have greater odds of landing on the right side of luck?" - "I refuse to allow that fact to continue going forward; here's what I'll do to change those people's current situations..." - etc. etc. some other conclusion - there are probably dozens of them Refusing to acknowledge that reality is cozy and allows you to delude yourself that you have an easy answer. and that the only reason someone would live otherwise is because they either don't know, are lazy, have bad habits, etc. Reality is not nearly as cozy (which I'm sure you'd agree isn't a surprise. reality has no responsibility to be warm and fuzzy)

What you’re saying is essentially that some people are not capable of living on a single income, so they just shouldn’t try. Very inspiring. What I’m saying is, it IS possible, if that’s what someone wants. What I’m not saying is that there are no sacrifices to get there.

Just try it on for a minute. boot up a mental virtual machine that has the fact "this advice simply can't work for some people, for [whatever reasons you require to try on believing it]". Just do it and see where your thoughts go next.

Which part won’t work? You haven’t refuted anything I’ve said, it’s all just emotional pleas that some people just aren’t capable. If you’re someone who wants to live on a single income, there are any number of options - start doing schooling in off hours, move to a cheaper COL region, pay off debt, move into a cheaper home, sell your expensive cars, etc.. What about these options is not feasible for some people? Maybe they don’t want to move? Fine, but that’s a choice, not a limitation. Maybe they’re having a hard time getting the right job? Ok, but what’s the alternative? Just give up? Come on dude

Just set up a thought experiment where those things aren't in play; it's not that hard. I dunno, uh..: Two parents with three kids, both parents have bad genetic luck (not the brightest bulbs in the box) and a sordid past leaving them very poorly educated and starting off (at the moment they would receive your advice) with a combined debt of $150,000, no assets and no savings. they both work full time at low-paying jobs, one of them has a part time evening job, and this all just barely pays the interest on their debt - some months it doesn't even do that. Hell, make the mother pregnant again, too, why not? They both have no family and any distant friends of theirs have equal or worse problems. - schooling in off hours: "what off hours?!" - cheaper COL region: we're already in a dirt-poor area; besides, moving costs are non-zero and the budget is already negative - cheaper home: see above; with another kid on the way, if anything we need a _larger_ home! two of the kids already share a bedroom - sell cars: we have one car (one parent takes the bus) and it's an old money pit, not an expensive car if you think these are outlandish premises, you're not in touch with other peoples' reality. I think the best you could do for the above scenario is to say, "I'm sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, my advice actually won't work out for you. BUT if you try to follow it anyway - even knowing it's infeasible - you'll feel fulfilled and proud just to be trying, fruitlessly. at least you can always believe you'll go to heaven when this disappointing life is over!" I'm just trying to make you see that some people will always be left behind in the world as it is today, and it's more respectful to them and honest to yourself to admit this and allow that unfortunate fact to live in your heart as motivation to help make a better world with eyes open.

We're not socialist there's a reason some people don't make it in our society.

You’re pointing out an extreme exception to the rule, but ok dude. You’re drawing up this scenario as if there is a significant portion of people in a completely hopeless situation and I emphatically disagree. If you ever watch Dave Ramsey take calls from people that are in bad financial situations, there is almost always a way out. Almost always there is somewhere to cut. Almost always there are steps that you can take. Maybe it’ll take years, but it’s possible. But you’ve thoroughly convinced yourself that there is a sizable portion of the population who can’t get out of their bad situation and that they should just give up. That’s a sad way to see people.

I also love that you're claiming I am saying we shouldn't try to make the world better and that they are 100% at fault. No where in any of my notes have I said that the system is perfect and the people in a bad situation are completely to blame. I feel like that should be pretty damn obvious, I constantly talk about the evils of fiat. But what you're saying to them is effectively "None of this is your fault, but also you have no hope or ability to fix it. Sorry!" And that, I think, is a massively disrespectful thing to say to someone.

Widen the net beyond this country and "extreme exception to the rule" becomes a laughable claim. ...and you think the call screeners for Dave Ramsey let calls through for whom Dave won't be able to provide advice and look smart? Not to mention that the people who are in a hopeless situation and likely lack all motivation are not calling Mr. Ramsey up. And remind me, does the Dave Ramsey show - apparently an important global financial indicator and not just a US mainstream media psyop - get broadcast to 3rd world countries? But I digress. It seems like you're willing to accept that there **are** exceptions to the rule, but don't necessarily agree that those families exist in number enough to warrant you paying them any mind. If you agree that your advice framework has "sorry man, you're shit out of luck, here's to hoping you have a better accident of birth next time" to say to them, then we actually don't have a disagreement. that's all i've been trying to point out.

And like I said in the note you're responding to: I don't think they should give up. I think it's still worth living your life as if you could succeed. But I think it's important to be honest with people, also. And to not speak in ridiculous absolutes like "Women should raise the kids, single-income men should provide for them - everyone CAN do this, if they choose not to they're lazy or have their priorities screwed up".

No dude, my framework does not include "You're out of luck and there's nothing you can do to improve it". That's a loser mindset and Im kinda done arguing that. Saying that to someone is denying their agency, flat out. Bringing a third world argument is ridiculous. Obviously, I'm not giving advice to them. Feel what you want about Dave Ramsey, but the reality is people in America and the first world are generally awful at managing money and are usually to blame for their own financial problems. And even if they aren't to blame, believe it or not, there are still options.

What would you say to a cancer patient on their death bed? "You have a week to live, try to get your kids to come to town." or "You can beat this, I believe in you! Put all your remaining time and energy into doing pushups!" The worse a person's situation, the more important it is to be honest with them so they can make appropriate choices according to their own system of values.

lol ok, so let's bring out the VERY obvious exceptions. Did you really think my advice was intended for cancer patients?? Come on man..

Just sorting things out. You previously said these moves are "POSSIBLE" for "EVERYONE", in an attempt to trot out a Grand Unified Theory of Financial Independence and Heaped Blame Upon Those With Childcare. Of course that was a ridiculously broad claim and couldn't possibly apply to everyone. But it takes going to extremes to get you to admit it. You could have just said so in your first reply to me.

Sure, I wasn’t exactly precise. There are always some level of exception. But my point is that what most people call an exception is usually an excuse. I find it very annoying when people like you feel that every single statement has to be globally true or else it can’t be said. The spirit of what I said remains what I mean - 99% of people can achieve this. If you need to trot out cancer patients to win the argument, then great job. But I think you know what I meant.

doesn't land the same with the ideologues when you have to caveat it with "except of course in the millions of cases where that can't work out for any number of realistic reasons."

I didn’t say the millions of cases 🤣 you said “but what about cancer patients?!?!” And I admitted that was an exception lol