#asknostr
I’ve seen a few posts lately ramping up the conversation #bitcoin is surveillance vs #monero is private.
I’m curious, couldn’t a soft, or perhaps it would have to be a hard fork of Bitcoin make it possible for it to become privacy favorable or no, inherently at the root, that is not possible with Bitcoin 🤷♂️
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Replies (22)
Indeed. Satoshi himself proposed those changes for Bitcoin back when Monero had not been a thing yet.
Later those changes all got implemented in Monero.
Monero is based on the cryptonote white paper by Nicolas van Saberhagen, the only other anonymous founder of another coin that vanished immediately after proposing the design.
You are asking the right questions.
Wait. I'm seeing a lot of such ideas recently. But keep in mind, we should use the same tactics as governments, they crossed the line, so we can play dirty now. Let's boil them like frogs. Distract them with monero, create false image, keep them as long as possible and then drop the btc privacy bomb
Possible but not necessary and also a bad idea. It’s transparent at the base layer because that unintuitively gives an order of magnitude more privacy to the individual hiding from the state compared to the State hiding from the individual.
People saying it's a bad idea think they know better than Satoshi Nakamoto, I guess?
Appreciate the reply. Thank you
🤷♂️
Thanks for the added context!
It would take hard forks to implement Monero's privacy into Bitcoin
Monero will soon undergo a hard fork, probably in the next year, to add full chain membership proofs.
@npub1ur5j...dx2w isnt this more a wallet default problem than a base layer one? silent payments and payjoin already exist on bitcoin, most wallets just dont turn them on
No way, José...
Perhaps, but the conversations seem to be more fundamental/philosophical in nature vs feature debates
@npub1ur5j...dx2w whats the line for you, is privacy a right that has to be default or a tool people should get to opt into?
Jason, while your question seems highly reasonable on a purely technical surface level, it is a philosophical and game-theoretic illusion when confronted with the institutional, social, and economic reality that Bitcoin has devolved into. The short answer is: No, Bitcoin cannot and will never achieve protocol-level, default, and unbreakable privacy through either a soft or a hard fork. This is the inescapable consequence of Bitcoin’s foundational mathematical and socio-political architecture.
For privacy to actually function in a blockchain, it must be enforced at the protocol level and mandatory for everyone (default), exactly as it is in Monero. Any privacy mechanism bolted onto Bitcoin after the fact can only ever be "opt-in" (optional) by technical necessity. A soft fork could technically append opt-in privacy layers or sidechains to Bitcoin (much like Litecoin's Mimblewimble integration). However, game theory dictates that opt-in privacy is dead on arrival. If only 5% of the network's transactions are private and 95% are transparent, states, regulators, and exchanges will immediately flag that 5% as "suspicious" or "tainted." Utilizing privacy under such conditions becomes synonymous with drawing a target on your own back.
Besides, the ultimate red line for Bitcoin maximalists is the ability to audit the 21 million supply limit at any given second. In fully private systems like Monero, transaction amounts and wallet balances are shielded; supply auditability relies on zero-knowledge proofs and advanced cryptographic equations rather than raw visibility. The Bitcoin community will never abandon its cargo-cult obsession with "visually counting the 21 million" in exchange for protocol-level privacy.
Bitcoin's UTXO model is entirely transparent. Even if a hard fork miraculously implemented total privacy tomorrow, the past 17 years of transaction history and wallet relationships (mappings) are already permanently etched into the internet. Trying to secure the future of a ledger whose past is fully exposed is like locking the vault door after the gold has already been cataloged by the tax man.
A foundational tenet of the Austrian School of Economics (following Ludwig von Mises and Carl Menger) dictates that for an object to function as "money," it must be completely fungible. That is, any single unit of the currency must be identical to, and indistinguishable from, any other unit in the eyes of the market. Bitcoin has long since lost this sacred economic property. Due to its transparent ledger, every single Satoshi carries a traceable provenance (history). If your Bitcoin was previously used in a cyberattack, drug trade, or an unsanctioned act of civil disobedience (such as the Canadian truckers' protests), those coins are flagged as "tainted" by centralized exchanges, blacklisted, or frozen. Consequently, a "clean" Bitcoin and a "tainted" Bitcoin no longer hold equal market value. No future fork can erase the legacy data of the blockchain, meaning this economic rot is terminal for Bitcoin. Monero, by hiding every transaction and coin from genesis, is the only currency that preserves absolute, uncompromising fungibility.
Bitcoin is no longer governed by cypherpunks, anarchists, or dissidents. Its destiny is firmly held hostage by industrial mining conglomerates, Wall Street titans (BlackRock, Fidelity), and state-licensed exchanges (Coinbase, Binance). If a hard fork enforcing absolute privacy were ever put to a vote, miners and institutional players would instantly reject it. Protocol-level privacy would trigger immediate mass delistings from regulated exchanges, the cancellation of multi-billion-dollar ETFs, and the flight of institutional capital. Those holding the keys to the kingdom will always choose state compliance -and thus transparency- over individual liberty to protect their financial empires and ASIC hardware investments. Game theory guarantees that Bitcoin’s power brokers will never vote for their own financial suicide.
Within the framework of Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s private property ethics and Samuel Edward Konkin’s theory of counter-economics, privacy is an inseparable component of property rights and self-ownership. Forcing an individual to expose their wealth and transactions to third parties (states or predators) is a de facto confiscation of their right to self-determination. Bitcoin’s transparency is a double-edged sword that serves both the tyrant and the criminal. Your public balance sheet is visible to anyone, transforming your wealth into an active target for extortion. Even worse, "tainted" Bitcoin can be routed to your wallet without your consent, allowing malicious actors to orchestrate flawless reputation assassinations or lock you out of the financial system entirely. While pacifying the masses with a myth of financial liberation, Bitcoin has quietly integrated them into the most sophisticated financial panopticon in human history. States do not ban Bitcoin because cash is difficult to trace, whereas tracing Bitcoin via Chainalysis is trivial.
By compromising with the state and the legacy financial architecture, Bitcoin chose the role of "digital gold" and, in doing so, sold its cypherpunk soul. Expecting Bitcoin to retroactively adopt privacy is like domesticating a wild lion, putting it in a circus cage, and hoping it will one day rule the savanna again. For covenant communities seeking an unyielding shield against the ruthless surveillance apparatus of the state, the only option is a currency that rejects institutional permission and derives its legitimacy from pure, uncensorable mathematics: That is #Monero.


I still don't really see a huge logistical difference between living in the "monero sidechain" and never leaving, and just using monero. you would get treated exactly the same either way.
That was a pretty good read. Well explained.
Thanks. There’s plenty more on my profile. I’ve been writing these for a year now. I’m probably the reason why the Monero defence -which Jason also mentioned in his first post- has been making such a high-profile appearance. :25:
My XMR bag has to moon tho 😂
In light of the following post I decided to put Major Jason Lowery’s seminole work, Softwar, into NotbookLM and generate a deepdive podcast.
Hope it is of value to those engaging here!
View quoted note →
It will…just wait 🤪
Thanks for the detailed reply. I’ve read it…working to digest it.
:63: