Replies (117)
#Monero
#bitcoin
#nostr
View quoted note →Well, if something is used more than any other thing, doesn't necessarily mean it is better. We have tons of examples in real life. For example, Linux is way better than Windows, and yet 98% of people continue to use Windows.
People have their believes.
Using windows is not a belive. Some lazzyness. Lack of knoladge. Comfort zone. Any othere. . Issue here is that testnen is annoyying with his statments. There is no perfect tool. Just stop being twat
Your request to see lightning to lightning, outside of my silly "gotcha" attempt, is something I wouldn't even know where to start with. I assume if I was running a node and someone connected to me that I would be able to gather something, similar to if I ran a public xmr node, I'd be able to get the ip of the individuals using mine (I believe).
I'm open to being corrected.
Here you go 🏆
My friend, you have successfully confused a lightning invoice for a transaction
A lightning invoice is like the LN equivalent of this: monero:46BeWrHpwXmHDpDEUmZBWZfoQpdc6HaERCNmx1pEYL2rAcuwufPN9rXHHtyUA4QVy66qeFQkn6sfK8aHYjA3jk3o1Bv16em?tx_amount=239.39014&tx_description=donation
It tells you a pubkey but that is only used for communication, it does not receive money
You are talking about different things, when you have your life and freedom in danger you will use the best for the job, and it's not a case of preference because of pride or comfort.
This is life or death use case, and is in extreme cases that you see what is the best.
But your point is truth in the way that in not a life or death case people tend to not choose the best solution, look to btc market cap for exemple 👀😉
Do you think Monero will overtake bitcoin in about 10-15 years or so? I think it might
Go on, both of you -- I am learning a lot today! 🤗
Why do you need someone else's transaction? Just get some Monero and make your own.
There are obfuscating services like I2P or TOR, highly recommend everybody uses it.
In terms of price i don't think because bitcoin have daddy state and ETFs cover, but who knows the future, but i think is possible to have more % of price growing than bitcoin in that terms (10-15 years).
Let's see what happens next
I think you might have misread my post
I can see all monero transactions but some parts of them are encrypted, which is good
I am wonder if yall can see *any* lightning transactions -- even just one
yes, we can and have been talking about the tradeoffs
I misinterpreted your statement and thought you meant you would get back to me later with info
I apologize if saying "I look forward to your report" offended you, I didn't mean to
> Go on, both of you
Ok :)
The node found by "Bitcoin Anonymous" on the lightning explorer might not even be the recipient's -- it might be a routing node. Some routing nodes (like lnproxy, and some of my software) let users create invoices that use the routing node's pubkey instead of the user's. This helps prevent users from finding out your node's location on the p2p network.
> there aren’t enough sats for everyone to open a lightning channel
how many sats are necessary?
OK but every invoice I create on my node exposes my IP. I'm using CLN.
That's assuming 1 million sats will always be worth what they are now haha
Lol
Consider putting it on tor
Also, the state of privacy won't be the same as it is right now. Haven't been as dialed in as usual because I'm temporarily deep into the political and economic rabbithole nowadays, but the following are developments to keep an eye on
PTLC's, blinded paths and bolt12 are some of them, trampoline routing.
(Not making any comparison here with other networks, since I only keep track of what's happening with Bitcoin.)
Ecash
Right but if the size of the channel you open gets smaller, at some point it becomes too expensive to open because of the high fees on the base chain. Imagine opening a channel with half a million sats when fees are high. That’s why I’m asking because I’ve heard a lot of bitcoiners talk about this problem and they’ve said that a lot of the transactions have to be done on other layers. Custodial seems unavoidable.
And taproot adoption in lightning would also be quite an improvement in privacy of course. Zeus already lets you open taproot channels
I don't think you are right, even in death use cases people adhere to stupid believes. For example, the stupid believe that a vaccine can cure you out of an imaginary virus.
Well all those things come out of believes, like believing it is going to be very difficult or unconfortable. Knowledge and wisdom only comes after you question your current believes. Ignorant people are always those that learn once and attach to their believes for ever.
OK then it exposed my TOR node address. Now I am sending my kyc'd coin to a darknet. Might as well buy monero at this point.
Q: can you link me to a description of what exactly a Zap ⚡️ is, how its built up around a LN tx (I assume)? TIA
Or even I2P for example if you don't trust TOR.
I'm even here on NOSTR TOR-only.
Yes, it's slow, but privacy first.
Not agreeing or disagreeing with you as this can get too speculative.
But I can speak reliably about how I plan and manage my set up.
I make sure I have a decent amount of inbound for my needs, which are quite predictable. I add a slight extra buffer just in case of course.
I either lease inbound from an LSP or open a channel myself and clear out sats to make room for inbound.
I see custodial wallets as a quick temporary fix that I can use as a short-term solution to reduce costs. But I'll eventually shift to self-custodial once the fee market looks more favourable.
I’m not even trying to argue i just had legitimate questions. I don’t understand this enough. Does anyone think the future of bitcoin is going to be custodial lightning or some other solution like ecash? Maybe a combination of all these things
To be honest, I don't think anyone can know. Different people have different needs and preferences on how to custody their sats.
Based on the technical developments and the fee market conditions I've seen so far, I am not worried.
A combination of everything that exists right now and more is a good, 'safe' answer 😂
you understood correctly
> OK then it exposed my TOR node address
Yeah, your *TOR* node address
> Now I am sending my kyc'd coin to a darknet
I recommend buying on robosats or bisq so that your coins aren't KYC'd
> Might as well buy monero at this point
I suppose so, if you want worse privacy
its worth noting that
@npub1yxp7...399s not being able to locate any relevant information about this address says close to zero about moneros receiver privacy.
likewise a random 3rd party not being able to locate information on a LN tx says extremely little about the overall state of LN privacy.
if you want privacy from the public, you can use a fiat bank.
There's at least one DNM using LN ( Tor-based instance of
@npub15dc3...yv6e ), so it can't be 0%.
If you can see the flow of transactions (and thus are able to compare currency flows to those of other currencies) on a DNM, it's not private.
People spend Monero more because it's worse money (Gresham's Law).
I'd like to see a random 3rd party locate information on *any* LN tx
Are you up to the challenge?
#realtalk brotha
Got it, thanks
Monero is currently more scarce than BTC and will be so for the next 15 years.
Monero sees greater adoption on black, grey and white markets for real transactions than Bitcoin, which is mainly used for speculation.
Private wealth > store of value (gold)
If it's worse money, then what is the point of spending it in the first place?
If you're already holding it, it's better to spend the bad money over the good money. If you have nothing else, you'll have to spend the good money.
I wouldn't say worse money, I would say easier to replace.
Monero incentivizes a circular economy because anyone easily can mine it, or buy it from the same places you can with Bitcoin*, and it's more affordable*, it's used as cash more because it has the more cash like principle, lightning feels more credit like in my opinion.
Monero maintains a more reliable price point, and gradually increases overtime typically, so it's more predictable as determination of price.
(*DEX, Kraken, and Some ATMs)
(*currently)
Timing correlation attacks matter, too, just a different threat model to have an active attacker - not something to dismiss just because netizens aren’t running an active attack :).
I would love for someone competent to show me this information too!
Do you really think that who is using Monero is one that has bitcoin and everytime thry have to do a transaction makes a swap? 👀
You don't know Monero community for sure..
That is the excuse that your fav influencers say to have an argument for this, but its not applied here, if that was the case Monerists would be using FIAT 👀
Its not because it has an onion adress that the service is a DNM service..
I'm perfectly willing to concede that is likely true.
I also assert its a stupid and meaningless challenge you're only doing to stir up the shit.
monero advantage over lightning is UX, it works in a way people are used to if they know bitcoin or shitcoins and dont require interactivity and risky leaks for the receiver (scid-alias and bolt-12 already fixes most of the issues).
And is "private enough" to permit to dont trivially send to jail drug dealers due to retarded customers paying from exchanges.
But it is a shitcoin, and it cant mantain any economic activity based on it cause it is bad money and will go to zero.
Also all the crypto noodles needed to hide the txs data is unsustainable and cant scale if any people at some point would decide to use it.
Also it hardforks every now and then, it is centralized controlled and it opens the doors to new exploits on every new hardfork.
Also the only thing that we said is good, the UX, is actually trash and it require to trust someone else node to sync the chain data or to waste a lot of time and resources just to use a "light wallet". Lightning has already a better custodial/noncustodial UX and it has a lot of margins to become better; its just need some willing to learn and practice.
Also people shilling it are shitcoiners like all other shitcoiners, they seems better and to care much about important aspects like privacy, but its just the flavour of narrative they choose to try steal your money.
Custodial
All 3 things you listed have nothing to do with privacy. Common goalpost shift.
Monero is scarce. There is a limited amount at any given time that is under demand and no one can just poof it out of thin air.
FCMP upgrade later this year will enable L2s.
But yes it does have a smaller network effect.
I can't and never claimed I could.
But Wallet of Satoshi, Strike, Chivo, Primal, large LSPs, etc (the way the vast majority are using Lightning because of it's complexity) can see a lot if not everything their users are doing.
Hackers can breach that data and governments can also potentially access that info (and they could already be doing this we don't know - gag orders and all)
Ideally I want privacy from my counterparties AND third parties, without needing to jump hoops or give up custody, otherwise it's just the same privacy as a bank.
I answered your question now answer mine. Can you show me any transactions from the Monero address on my profile? How about amounts or who received it? Can you see the fees I paid?
Doesn't that apply to Bitcoin too? Just because it is used more doesn't mean it is better.
Don't random nodes on a route see information? Custodians and LSPs do as well. All third parties that ideally shouldn't have information about a transaction between me and you.
Hold up, why would it matter if the coins are kyc or not if lightning transacting are completely private. Serious question.
All DNMs are used for is to deposit or withdraw transactions. No one is using them as their personal wallets. If Lightning was on DNMs it would have the same issue.
If the reason DNMs are adopting something was because of Gresham's Law there would be much better(worse?) crypto to do that with than Monero.
It's the strong default privacy and relative ease of use vs the alternatives.
Compared with what? It is used much less than $, and yet it is way better.
Exactly compared with what. That's what I mean. You can take that statement many ways so doesn't say much by itself.
Don't look too close.
I recommend avoiding KYC'd exchanges because using them means giving them your identity and informing them how much you've purchased, and that's none of their business
> Don't random nodes on a route see information?
Yes
> Custodians and LSPs do as well
True
> All third parties that ideally shouldn't have information about a transaction between me and you
Agreed
*Now* can you find an LN transaction?
Nope I can't. The way you tell me you use Lightning I'm pretty confident you have relatively strong privacy. I don't think that is true though for most Lightning users.
Lightning wouldn't have the same issue in that case because there's no transaction trace on Lightning, but there is on Monero.
Gresham's law only applies in the context of a market that accepts both Monero and Bitcoin (or any other currency). If the option is there to pay in Bitcoin or Monero, most will choose Monero because it's worse to hold. If the only option is Monero, then that doesn't apply.
DNMs typically have custodial wallets (the market itself is escrowing funds for the sellers and buyers) so that would make zero difference (this is how markets exit and rug everyone in the first place). You would have the same situation of no privacy from the market for any funds on it.
So DNMs just decided to switch over to a coin with a tiny fraction of Bitcoins liquidity for fun? DNMs had to decide to introduce Monero in the first place out of all the other crypto alternatives out there. They weren't simply doing it because of Greshams law. Strong default privacy in a highly adversarial environment and very cheap transaction fees were the real reasons.
So to not have to worry about sending my kyc'd coins to a darknet, I have to buy kyc free coins on a darker, and the only way to buy kyc free coins is to send my money to a darknet. Wow
Lightning uses onion routing.
Tor implemented onion routing, which Lightning copied.
Try reading the Tor whitepaper, it's right there at the beginning what onion routing can't protect you against: a global passive adversary.
A GPA has existed for many years. It's called the NSA.
Onion routing doesn't provide you with the privacy and anonymity you think it does, sorry.
(but it's better than nothing)
Completely agree. The best way to preserve your privacy and anonymity online is to not use the internet.
Yes, but that's not what I meant, and I think you know it.
Look at
NymVPN: The World's Most Private Decentralized VPN | Nym
NymVPN is a decentralized VPN with mixnet technology and zero-knowledge proofs. Protects your metadata, not just your IP. Anonymous signup. Try free.
for one example of what could become the golden standard.
Technology progresses, both offensive and defensive. The people who run the DNMs and the people who use them know well that LN is not sufficient, and that's why they don't use it.
This is the free market doing its thing.
Try not to look at this like "XMR rocks baby, LN sucks!", but more like dispassionately observing and acknowledging the facts and adjusting your threat model accordingly.
You are correct, the points I’ve listed have nothing to do with privacy but everything to do with being a good money.
So the question I pose to you is, if you had the option to receive the best form of money … aka most widely acceptable, best store of value etc, would you accept the 2nd best? Yes if you were doing shady transactions, no if you were just living a modest life.
Don’t get me wrong privacy is super important so I’ve always had a soft spot for Monero due to the problem it solves for but I believe Lightning solves this for Bitcoin.
So Monero might, for a long time, be a good way to spend and obfuscate shady transactions but it wouldn’t be a good place to store my wealth or a good medium to buy groceries or a house.
Ultimately the market is already telling you this.
Yeah, I don't look at it in the way that one is better at privacy, so hence the other is bad; it's more of me saying Monero isn't AS good as those who love it say it is either (as we've seen with some evidence of deanonymizong/tracing back transactions), so users of both need to adjust their threat models.
I have other issues with Monero that I believe make it unsuitable for a secure and reliable market currency in the long-run. Free flowing, uncensorable markets should be the default, not just darknet sites for others to search out for, so they must be accessible and have the ability to spread rapidly, which I think LN and ecash allow for more readily (while still preserving privacy, albeit not perfectly) as they are tied to a much better money.
They both have their issues and their workarounds, for sure.
Personally I find Monero easier to understand so I prefer to use it, and as long as there is a non-centralized bridge back and forth between Monero and Bitcoin, I am happy.
Different tools and competition between them is a good thing imo. People will choose as they choose, for their own reasons, and one way or another, they will reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of their own choices.
I think it's harder to ask for anything better than that 👍.
Not if the escrow is an ecash mint or a market of agents.
And sure, you can adopt it for those technical reasons, and that is the free market at work, but in the long-run I think it won't hold as a reliable currency for reasons not just tied to privacy. In the future, Monero will probably be utilized as just an intermediate swapping currency (which ecash mints can already act as and in my opinion will evebtually supercede the usage of Monero), but even in that case people don't want to hold it, they want to get rid of it. Cash is a perfect comparison: I use it because it's more private than my credit card, but I don't want to hold it. This is most obviously evident with the XMR/BTC price chart. I'm not arguing that Bitcoin is better at privacy with this point (though, there are ways to make it more private), just that it is better money.
This is the way; the free market at work. 🤝
Maybe. We'll see what happens. I really don't care as long as it has strong privacy, is self-custodial, and relatively easy to use.
Scroll up. This whole conversation was about privacy and you changed the subject.
Bitcoin is not even the most widely accepted money though. USD is thats why stablecoins are the most popular globally.
If privacy is "shady" why do you want privacy for Lightning?
Yes, the market is already telling you Monero is better for privacy which is why it dominates DNMs
One thing is for sure though that Wallet of Satoshi address in your bio is giving you no privacy from them.
You should definitely stick with Monero and we should resume this conversation 15years from now.
More deflection. See ya.
That's a joke, right? Go ask 100 people randomly on the street in your local city 2 questions:
Have you heard of Bitcoin?
Have you heard of Monero?
A good 80% of people, maybe more will say they have heard of Bitcoin.
You will be hard pressed to find 1 person in 100 that has heard of Monero.
Ask the same if use. Like the Monero person uses it, great.
Likely 6% of the people will say they own or use Bitcoin.
Literally nobody knows or uses Monero outside of the 8 people who keep buying each others used panties over tor.
this is provably incorrect.
monero recently does over 20% of bitcoins transaction volume.
at EVERY company that offers both Bitcoin and Monero payment methods, Monero is more popular.
absolutely agree Bitcoin has a larger network effect,
but your echo chamber is showing and it's not the disparity you think it is.
And like 5.99% of those people don't use Bitcoin. They hold Bitcoin IOUs on their Coinbase app and do jack shit with it.
Everybody I know that is into BTC also knows about or owns Monero. ALL of them.
If your city only sees little adoption of Bitcoin or Monero humbly ask yourself: What have I done wrong, that my city is so far behind the curve?
At one point OGs realised that being the first Bitcoiner in your city also comes with responsibilities.
I see that Monero people these days care more about their fellow citizens having a good store of value and a PRIVATE means of exchange than wannabe fiat NGU Bitcoiners waiting for Wall street to pump their bags while doing literally nothing. Hopi g the intended outcome is Bitcoin reaches the mainstream as a medium of exchange.
Have you once read the news in the last 10 years?
KYC and custodianship rules 99% of the people that came into Bitcoin in the last 10 years.
Have you ever watched the stats from businesses, giftcard providers, shops that actually accept Bitcoin and Monero as payment?
You'd be stunned. Because Monero is in an excilent position, despite BTC being 5 years way.
It's simply because government seemed to big a hurdle for Bitcoin so the MoE use case was given up in favour for SoV.
It's a good thing it helped the ecosystem draw in billions of worthless fiat, while Monero grew in the underground. One click away of becoming money for anybody who desires to use it to protect ones privacy andtherew also the integrity of ones family, community or business relationships.
Does that mean you could technically both agree to lie to everyone using a self created event using kind 9735 without ever sending sats? Is that what I'm reading?
yes. In fact, you can make up a pubkey, have it create a "zap request" for an invoice for 22 million bitcoin, have your nostr "account" give it one (I know, nostr technically doesn't have accounts, but you know what I mean), then have it request a zap receipt, have your nostr "account" give it that too, and voila: nostr apps will duly report that your nostr account received a payment of 22 million bitcoin, and some will even display your zap receipt as "proof" -- even though it's impossible to receive 22 million bitcoin
Get a display name.
Awww, cute. You didn't read anything that I said.
In 15 years, it will have trended almost exactly to zero against Bitcoin.
Congrats. Amazing money.
Actually he was forming his point. It wasn't only about privacy. It was about his belief that Bitcoin has enough privacy plus other monetary properties that will make it more widely accepted over time, thus possibly allowing for far more private transactions in the future.
You were refusing to acknowledge or try to understand his point. I don't know why you would expect him to dive further into yours and not state his original purpose for the conversation. Sounds like willfully shutting your mind off to me. You're no better than the very toxic of us bitcoiners.
Bit of an exaggeration but I get your point. A money for the whole world has to work for normies. Bitcoin is made to become that money. Eventually people will get burned or get educated, etc., and switch to better custodial solutions, semi-custodial, and self-custody, all held accountable by the free market. To begin with, banks will start holding Bitcoin for you in the coming couple years (I know, disgusting).
It's going to find its way EVERYWHERE. And most people in this world are extremely ignorant. That's what you get for having the most successful money at being a money. But those coins are still very hard to fake, double spend, etc. It's easy to audit the institutions that custody them. It's easy to set up federations where every family has that one bitcoiner that can set everybody up and manage the technical stuff. The technical and privacy conscious people can protect their privacy within the same unit of account via lightning, ecash, and new technologies built on Bitcoin.
You underestimate the market and free banking to hold multiple competing custodial solutions accountable. But the point remains that Monero users are generally utilizing more of its privacy and self custody features, partly because those are the defaults. It specializes in privacy. It's really good for that.
These guys really need to read up on monetary theory.
If you read my responses I actually did still address their off-topic points
It wasn't MY conversation. It was the original conversation of OP: Monero vs Lightning transactional PRIVACY
Very common for Bitcoiners on here to do whenever transactional privacy comes up. I don't blame them though it's a losing battle to say otherwise. So change the subject.
Well, I disagree that Bitcoin has enough privacy. I don't think even Super believes this but correct me if I'm wrong Super.
Also, I can't use the 'possiblies' and 'maybes' of future privacy enhancements today which is why we're using Monero.
When/if that happens I'll use it.
You have no idea how much is being transacted. It's private. We know total number of transactions. Roughly 30k per day on a erage over the past 12 months. Representk g likely a few hundred thousand in USD daily.
Bitcoin on the other hand transacted around 400k per day on avg over 12 months. Representing billions in USD.
Transacted
That's less than 8% not 20%.
It's like you guys just make shit up to feel good about your poor life choices
Wild
wow
I provide actual data about tx volume
you WILD GUESS data about tx value
but *we're* the ones making shit up
got it 👍
Ummm, I just gave you the averages over the 12 months. You apparently arbitrarily picked a random day? Lo
Man, you guys better hope bitcoiners and devs don't fix the current privacy issues. Y'all would be fucked.
Here they are using the same source....
I picked yesterday, like normal peope do.
but you're absolutely correct that the mempool is dead now and if you average in all the shitcoining that happened on Bitcoin last year it looks better.
you did guess tx value. which you have no fucking idea about.
and its absolutely true that when people jave the opportunity to use monero OR Bitcoin, the majority of people use monero.
it's simply a fact that people use monero to spend
and bitcoiners are tight with their sats.
this should surprise nobody.
Hahaha. 1 day?????
You must be a young lad.
1 month, 3 months, 12 months, 1 year, 3 years are standard business timeframes.
The mempool being dead is still pricessing 10x the amount of daily tx than monero.
Your theory doesn't hold up.
and you must be trying to find evidence to prove a conclusion.
ordinals are not p2p txs
runes arent either
neither are exchange consolidation txs
or coinjoins
so if you were ACTUALLY interested in the number of economic txs occuring on the BTC blockchain,
you would go about it in a much different way than some "standard business timeframe" bullshit that actually obscures the dataset.
Ah. So the past 12 months is trying to find evidence? Lol. It is clear you are just randomly moving the goalposts.
This tx doesn't count, but ours does!
Tell you what, go ahead and remove all visa prepaid card and dark web store purchases. I don't think those count as P2P transactions and aren't legit.
That what be insane.
I am quite sure you aren't a business owner, don't do stats analysis, nor do you have a clue about global finance and the future of money.
Peace out, this is pointless.
"Man, you guys better hope bitcoiners and devs don't fix the current privacy issues. Y'all would be fucked."
I’m waiting patiently to embrace the day this happens… I won’t hold my breath tho…
How long can you hold your breath?
I can go for almost 2.5 min.
Silent payments are coming along nicely.
We already have lightning, fedi and cashu
Not too far off my man.
Ln is ok at best, I won’t use fedi or ecash for anything other then testing…
We shall see how good SP is and how many wallets integrate it.
My opinion privacy should be default and transparent only if wanted.
according to maxis,
they've been on the verge of solving the privacy problem...
*checks watch*
for over 7 years now
… this is why I won’t hold my breath… lmfao
Even Sats cant hold his breath THAT long
Your opinion of 100% private doesn't work or solve accounting problems that exist globally.
Bitcoin was designed to have a public ledger, solving the need for centralized ledger and control. That's the point. It solved the problem for the first time in history.
Monero is about trusting the code. There is no way to audit the trail of someone who just sent money to a 3rd party. It may be good for some things, but for audits, reserves, corporations, bank settlements, title/property transactions, etc...
All Bitcoin transactions must not be private, or these issues still exist.
If Bitcoin OGs, that held BTC for 15 years move to Monero you should listen.
I don't particularly give a shit what someone else does. Not my issue You shouldn't either.
I have zero problems with people who want to use monero. I will however call out their bullshit when I see it.
