Terrific ✨👏 onward @Max 🗽

Thank you for your work. Using Signal at the moment, but can’t wait to try White Noise in the future 💜 Only thing will be to convince my family once again, Signal was already a stretch for them 😂

We’re waiting patiently!

I also don't get notifications on Graphene FYI

Notifications also work way better in v2.

LFG! Once done, on to the actually hard problem: gaining the network effect 😅🙏

Looking forward to checking out sir. Thank you for all your work and hope you & the family are well!

Yeah, it was way harder than expected. But this time is different (hopefully) 🙃

Looking forward to work with it!

I guess so

You prefer Hermes over OpenClaw?

New app is way more consistent. Coming soon!

Thanks for your work. I still have poor understanding of what the reliability issues were, yet I hope this release will be more competitive with Cordn in terms of reliability.

Yeah, sucks to migrate... That's why #1 it has to work. And then have cool features that the old app doesnt have. We're trying to tackle both in the next release.

The main difficulty in group messaging is consensus. How does a group of people agree on what key to encrypt the next message too. If people disagree, someone can't decrypt the messages of someone else. That's a fork in the group state, it's quite a similar problem to Bitcoin. Contrary to Bitcoin, in most group messaging systems you know exactly who the group members are, which makes things easier. The main hurdle for marmot specifically is that there is no central server whom you can trust with ordering messages properly. Every client has to be a "fully validating node" and create "the blockchain" of messages so that they're in the exact same order as everyone else. Cordn takes a different approach, each group has one central coordinator who is trusted with message ordering. This massively simplifies the consensus problem, and reduces the amount of complexity in the client. This likely means cordn is relatively more stable than marmot if the coordinator is honest. And cordn uses lots of fancy tricks to make this central coordinator as blind and trust minimized as possible, and easy to run even in a browser tab. This is somewhat similar to Bitcoin CoinJoin, almost impossible to do fully decentralized (only coin shuffle achieved it in theory) so everyone built centralized coordination models (even joinmarket) and then Wasabi optimized the coordinator to be blind and trust minimized. So to some extend Marmot is trying to achieve the impossible, decentralized encrypted group messaging, many wizards keep telling us this is too difficult and probably impossible to achieve. But let's see, it smells to me like we're close on actually making it work...

Hermes. Both work well in the new whitenoise apps btw.

looking forward to finally get my hands on it. View quoted note →

Finally! I will be able to get rid of telegram!

👍

Thanks for explaining in such a concise way 🙏 Looking forward, whether White Noise group reliability will in practice become reliable without introducing centralized coordination. Cutting-edge technology indeed. It appears my main misconception about Cordn was that it allows multiple coordinators per group at the same time (yet that would still be some kind of a centralized coordination but with a leader election, similar to what Cassandra-like databases do). @Besao I don't know whether it's possible with the current Cordn design; just curious, have you possibly considered having multiple coordinators per group which can choose a leader (to make it less dependent on the reliability of a single yet switchable one)?

Yes, Cordn is designed the way it is to allow exactly this: a leader or preferred coordinator per group that keeps everything in order and avoids races that might occur when multiple sources have competing or out‑of‑order commits. It isn’t implemented yet, but it will be, we haven’t put much work into it so far because it’s an advanced feature that only power users will need, and we wanted to polish the UI/UX first. It will definitely come. But make it work reliable and have a good UX semeed what users request the most

Im not sure if this is the same app i recently tried or not. It was a fork of signal that included bitcoin. Maybe im wrong, if this is something different please let me know. When the other app i tried ported my number and signal account, i got locked out of my signal account for 7 days, dont want to repeat that. Looks like this one doesnt use phone numbers at all, so im probably just having PTSD, will look into it more...sorry for the confusion... some of us are desperate for a higher standard than signal or telegram without losing the familiar and intuitive UX

Ah, you're talking about Radar. It uses signal infrastructure, and that means your limited to use the network only from exactly one phone. You can't create an account on the laptop, and not have the same account in multiple phones, or multiple accounts in the same phone. That's one of the big complaints I have with Signal, and exactly why we started @White Noise So regarding this concern of yours, you won't get new PTSD here!

We started work on the Linux app, and it's quite nice already!

gitworkshop - Decentralized Git

Decentralized GitHub alternative over Nostr for browsing repositories, managing issues, and collaborating on pull requests.

What we haven't done yet is enable you to use the same nsec on both phones. That's a bit tricky, and we first want the basics to work flawless, but this is going to be a big focus after initial release.

Cool to hear about Hermes/OpenClaw integration! So basically can use whitenoise to chat with your agents rather than through telegram?

This should be a perfect fit for my grapheneOS setup! However, until the app supports amber login, Im going with a compartmentalized separate fresh npub for now and placing it in my nostr bio. Here it is if you want to add me! Excited about the potential here! npub15l42sn4y574722anya2amefatmzmffpeh49kghr0j4rjlhkxyrrqcpw0xm

The new white noise works great with Amber.

hmm did i download the wrong one? whitenoise-2026.5.22-arm64-v8a.apk

The new one is not yet released. You can build it yourself for now. gitHub.com/marmot-protocol/whitenoise-android

Ill have to wait, im not yet adept at compiling, thank you for your effort in making something better than the rest

Has a single coordinating key been implemented already in Marmot? I'd imagine that this is desired in some use cases and serves as a good starting point.

Woo! Good news! While the same nsec is not a hinderence for my use case right now, that's kind of a necessity feature to have in the future. I will continue to be patient! Keep up the good work!

What do you mean?

For example, if Alice creates a group, she can act as the admin without a need for consensus; coordinating messages can be distributed across several relays. No?

The list of group members, and admins, is part of the consensus state. Any member in a group knows exactly who's part of that group, and that only admins can make valid commits. Servers are only trusted for message delivery. Given that every group member somehow gets every commit message, they will converge on a shared state of the group. For now marmot uses nostr relays for message delivery, we're already thinking how to do this with fips, it should work.

The reliability of message delivery of commit messages is the main difficulty, even in the case of a single admin?

Correct, every member MUST have every commit message. (Regular chat messages can be dropped) Only admins can write commits.

A structured network strategy to sync Nostr relays I think can greatly help the persistance and reliability of messages. Negentropy is a huge help. For example, if all admins independently run relays and have write policies exclusive to members/admins, the relays can sync and secure only those messages between each other. Strfry has some support here with a router. However, last I remember, the features were new and could be optimized. I would need to look again.

Yes, and now do this with relays on the phone and fips connection between them, cypherpunk future is now.

Sure, in some cases! Though, the notorious flakey internet connection of phones adds complexity and difficulty. Local messaging use cases could also benefit from wireless connections (e.g., LoRa/Bluetooth/Wi-Fi). In other cases, relays with low latency and high availability would be useful to bolster reliability. For example, with redundant-powered SBC or VPS relay servers with multiple internet connections/transports.