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He wasn't. Some say it was September 11 (when 9/11 happened, this was chosen to mock followers of the Scriptures). He was born during Sukkot, though.

And for the idea of the shepherds laying watch over the flock, reading around the verse for context reasons, they were inside the lodge while they kept an eye on the sheep (I'm using a YLT, though). Most holidays people tend to celebrate were created by pagans, and then the modern versions were created by the Catholic Church, as I've called them out for many, many more things otherwise.

The census was in spring.

There is deep significance to those times of year. Why the holidays were celebrated as they were and when, was not arbitrary or merely pragmatic in a material sense. Why the holidays changed and how, needs that knowledge to be fully understood. Certainly there are aspects that should be changed about them now, but going back isn’t the answer.

Its symbolic. It practically screams symbolism. I daresay you're **_supposed_** to see the symbolism - not all symbols are trying so hard to be noticed. And I just looked up a thing and found out that there's no recording of Jesus' birth on december 25 until Constantine's reign. Over 300 years to make shit up. And that emperor made a lot of shit up.

September 11th comes from the idea that Revelation 12:1-4 was a set of astrological clues that may have been how the Medjay (Magi) found the baby Yeshuah in the manger in Bethlehem. Dr. Michael Heiser talked about it on the Naked Bible Podcast. I think it was September 11, of the year 3 B.C. was the exact date based on computer astronomy models getting rewound. I think September 15, of the year 7 B.C. was the other date that people felt qualified. The year 0 was a pretty solid guess by a 6th century monk, Dionysius Exiguus, but there's almost no way he was right working with what would have been available 500 years after Christ. It was laudable but not perfect.

People back then would have avoided traveling during the winter, especially wisemen. I think it is more rational of a decision for Joseph and Mary to have travelled during the summer and early fall to the place where the census was to take place, shelter there for the winter, be there for the census in the spring, and then do what March was named for...beating feet.

I mean, Saturnalia was the real "New Years". The vernal equinox, midsummer (summer solstice) and hibernal equinox were all important markers for survival planning, crop planting/harvesting, etc. Lemuria was really Kumari Kandam but by the time the original All Saints Day did its job assassinating the ancient Roman pagan holiday of Lemuria, the holiday had become so distorted in meaning that it was barely connectable at all to the submersion of Kumari Kandam. Samhain is when the veil is thin between this density and the next. That's what was important about them. I don't believe I've advocated for anyone to change their holiday traditions. I'm simply sharing information.

I’m simply sharing there is more to it than material considerations. The holidays weren’t selected to have convenient days to plant or plan. My perceptions are still very limited, but even I can detect differences in consciousness depending on time of year. Holidays were set up by mystics understanding of cycles and forces not city planners. They were a time to share mystery dramas, do ritual magic, and interact with higher worlds in a way less accessible on other days. You didn’t call on anyone to change their traditions. However I am calling on those who know or are learning, to modify their expressions of those holidays as they learn. I’ve got a lot of planning to do to get ready for the 12 holy nights. January 6 (Joan of Arc birthday) is a pretty special day for initiation. I don’t see mass meditation being practiced that day. So I plan to focus on the reclamation of important days rather than why they got messed up. Hopefully next fall equinox I can do more than meditate in the park for a couple hours. The popular celebration is pumpkin spice latte at a carnival or pumpkin patch. We can do better.

Since the entire society wouldn't take off over half a year of work, do you have an explaination that explains specifically why Joseph and Mary would? It sounds like a huge amount of speculation with zero data.

4 or 3 B.C. was when Messiah Yeshua was born on September 11 of that year. He is the fulfillment of the 70th Week of Daniel 9 when he started his 3.5 year ministry in 27 A.D. (dying on March 13, 31 A.D. and then rising again on March 16 of that year).

It seems like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and basic economic calculus isn't included in your conception of how holidays came to be. Frankly, neither of us can honestly assert why the holidays came to be what they are with anything remotely resembling full confidence, however, some narrative explanations of how the holidays came to be are very logical and others are not at all logical. I am prone to go with the logical narrative that accounts for things like sustenance, survival, and praxeological considerations. First, the astrological markers are established, i.e. solstices and equinoxes. Eventually those become associated with growing and harvesting seasons. The anchoring of growing and harvesting cues to equinoxes and solstices was a way for people to improve their yields/harvests. Eventually, the knowledge of why the holidays became largely, if not entirely, lost and the holidays themselves remained. The association with fertility remained for example, the Easter/Esther/Ishtar celebration which is tied to the Vernal equinox. Then people unskilled in the application of the Golden Rule started engaging in post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacies and chose to associate their greater harvests not with intelligent planning but rather with divine intervention. That leads to all sorts of weird, nonsensical rituals and insane justifications for them that often become ossified into tradition. I mean...just look at how far baptism has come. The distortions are literally ridiculous. Over a billion people practice baptism today and think they're doing something but the truth is that what they're doing is a hollow shell of the original ritual. Holidays are the same.

That’s because I’m not using a probability model of how holidays came to be. I’m simply stating that there is higher spiritual significance to those days. Direct interaction between people and higher beings is a key factor in those holidays. Materialistic speculation on how they came to be is not of interest to me. It very well may be important in understanding the current form. I’m more interested in bringing greater coherence with the higher aspects of those days. If you want to join in the debate with the historians on the material side, go for it. I personally will continue my work in greater communication with those higher beings and bringing that side to light.

Do you think people back then had 40 hour per week jobs with benefit packages and 401k retirement plans too? If you have to go check in for a census, it is what it is. If she was already pregnant, they were in a delicate situation. The pregnant mother is fragile as is the mother and child post birth. I don’t think you’re capable of thinking from the perspective of people who were living life back then. Your conceptions of how they lived are extremely tainted by your experiences living in modern times.

I see, so you’re talking about something that the OP wasn’t about in the first place. 👍 The discussion is about the reason that holidays exist in the first place…the original cause. You are not talking about that topic. You chose to try to shift the conversation to something else. It’s like you’re constantly talking past me, not to me, and I keep falling for it.

You are assuming a materialistic explanation for the origin. I am not. The spiritual side is not only relevant but the more important side as I am concerned. You do not have to agree.

You are assuming a spiritual explanation for the origin. I am not…and I AM practical. The spiritual side may or may not be relevant to the origin. The materialistic explanation is definitely relevant. The best one can say for the spiritual aspect is that there may be a spiritual association with the holidays, but suggesting that the spiritual aspect is associated with the origin is nonsensical and myopic. You don’t have to agree.

Well maybe if you had some relevant experience you would feel differently. Telling a person who can see color the world is black and white isn’t very effective.

Maybe it's this and that? Aren't all things spiritually related in some way? That said I prefer the Mayan wavespell calendar. Much more accurate for spiritual purposes.

Little boy, you lack rigor of thought. You have a raging hard on for Steiner and Gilbert. You don't realize you're ossifying into dogmatism. You are familiar with like 3 or 4 traditions. I'm familiar with well over a dozen. You are prejudicial about studying lots of different things, yet you want to act like you have technicolor vision...you're a joke. You are the one with limited vision. Have fun staying ignorant. Stop shadowing my posts. You don't practice the golden rule and you're annoying.

I could rip apart your “familiar with well over a dozen” but I don’t. I could tell you what you have wrong with many many things and I don’t. Have I even once personally attacked you? You attack me nearly every time we interact. You also don’t seem to get that reading a dozen books about blacksmithing without ever picking up a hammer does not make you a master smith. There are bug eating illiterates in Africa that make both of us look like we know nothing about spiritual topics. I don’t know how I can avoid being a yes man and interact with peacefully. You could have blocked me a long time ago if I was truly a problem.

Blocking you wouldn't stop you from shadowing my posts. It would only stop me from seeing your posts. I haven't blocked you because you keep undermining me with your retarded bullshit. I've experienced the fiery baptism of the holy spirit. I've experienced the smokeless fire of the djinn. I've experienced the ultimate goal for a human being. My path to this started with living the righteous life until I scored the ultimate goal, only thing is I was driving a pickup 70mph down a highway when it happened so what normies like you think is the enlightenment experience wasn't a practical, functional possibility. I would have died and that's not useful to anyone. You can deny my past all you like but that doesn't invalidate it. It just makes you a liar.

Ultimate goal for a human being still leaves you hostile to others? Guess that’s not for me. I’m more interested in loving my fellow human beings.

I've lived a life full of that and it hasn't been reciprocated by assholes like you. You don't know how to love. You don't comprehend the Golden Rule or understand how to apply it. I was like you when that ultimate goal happened. I dismissed it as having potentially been an enlightenment experience because it didn't match Buddha's or Eckhart Tolle's or Sadhguru's or Rupert Spira's or Adyashanti's narratives. Turns out, humans have pigeon holed that type of experience as being "the enlightenment experience" rather than "AN enlightenment experience". The various traditions I've studied, including the Rosicrucian tradition to which you are so attached, are ALL distorted, so it should not be a surprise that "the enlightenment experience" as commonly "understood" is in fact only a partial understanding. I'm hostile to assholes who choose to use me to get ego cookies for themselves because your ego cookie you seek comes at the cost of my pursuit of ending religious violence in the world. Your pedantic, myopic tendency to argue with me and speak past me is only an obstacle to one of the most noble goals a person can have. I would think that such a goal would at least earn me freedom from being targeted by people like you as a source of ego cookies. You don't understand the traditions I've studied, nor are you aware of the connections I've found between them and modern science. You are very ignorant and in many ways willfully so which directly opposes the eye of the needle parable and the empty cup Zen koan. You're full of your own speculations and opinions. You won't reach the ultimate goal because you can't...not as long as this is your mindset. Fuck off and let me cook. I'm trying to end religious violence globally and all you're doing is using me for ego cookies. You are petty, self-serving, presumptuous, egotistical, and what's worse is that you project all of your shit onto me. You've repeatedly demonstrated that you think you have me in a box when you do not. You've repeatedly demonstrated that you think you're in my head when you are not. Stop it. Fuck off and let me cook.

Ad hominem eh? There are better ways to end a civil conversation.

You're the one talking about the entire society taking 6 months off work. I'm just pointing out how ill thought out that objection was. Think harder next time?

I see you're making friends again. 😂

December 25, B.C. 168, Antiochus offered a sow upon the great altar, and erected an altar to Jupiter. This is the "desolation" of Dan 8:13 type of the final "abomination of desolation" of Mt 24:15. The temple worship was forbidden, and the people compelled to eat swine's flesh.