Replies (45)
I might need to get my claude to walk through your client to make sure we are fully interoperable if people remove zaps from Amethyst and add the payment targets button. Where is the code again?
Strongly disagree. Zaps are a crucial public signal on the economic value of Nostr, which is the best tool we have to displace incumbent networks. My projection is zaps + ~ 100K DAUs is "take off: naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzptujz495l5qzjfqrzwr0wyenkzhajaq6qah4cuutcfsr5k6e6eclqy2hwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnyv9kh2uewd9hj7qgswaehxw309ahx7um5wghx6mmd9uq3vamnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwd4hhxarj9ec82c30qqfx6upcw4nkxvtgwquhjmm48pex57tjw59nc0
Gitea: Git with a cup of tea
jumble
jumble
I'm currently working on it, tho. To remove the zaps.
I aggregate the profile addresses with the payto addresses and render them all as payment targets.
It makes sense for the zapstore & music tho
I really didn't like the idea of a public ledger of payments to start with.
Which client do you develop? We here work on the development of LiberMedia. But programmer frustration is part of the system, haha.
I receive almost no economic value over zaps. And putting them on-chain doesn't solve for that.
Privacy-minded people don't like being forced to air their financial laundry in social feeds, in order to draw in influencers. And they are right.
It's roughly matching Bitcoin transactions with notes. This week, they decided to make it exactly-matching. Argumentum ad absurdum.
Maybe it does. My client doesn't have those use cases.
I will still display zap receipts, but I am skipping the zap functionality.
The next step is: "Why do we need WebSocket and JSON? Everything works much better without them."
I have HTTP relays, already, bro. Try to keep up. ๐คฃ
Getting rid of json would be silly, though.
Are you still using those `w` params as opposed to kind 10133?
XD. Always was
It's just absolutely mad to me that a concept, completely unrelated to our existing communication, had absolutely zero method of opt-out. Fucking none, torch the nsec and go back to twitter.
@jb55 ?
I mean I thought it is/was a cool use of the Lightning technology
I use everything. I even crawl through the text on profile about and note content fields. I just grab everything I can find and render it as a payment target.
So youโre really not aware of pro-zappers pointing out that likes or upvotes have virtually ZERO economic value? Micro-payments provide value for value. Iโm surprised I havenโt seen anybody talk about #v4v in this thread.
Zaps are a useful way for clients to optionally sort or filter feeds by rough merit.
The zaps I receive in a week and โฌ5 will get me a Happy Meal.
You already made that point. Maybe youโre not providing value ๐คทโโ๏ธ. Or youโre a small thinker.
My point is the difference between zero and micropayments is tangible and meaningful at scale. Incentives drive outcomes. Redditโs karma model is bullshit.
First statement was unkind and wrong.
But this is spot on: "My point is the difference between zero and micropayments is tangible and meaningful at scale."
Scale is key. A happy meal at 1000 DAU's could be a rent payment at 100000 DAU's. it's just math.
If anyone is expecting income supplementation from zaps while Nostr is this small, youโre gonna have a bad time.
I believe the micropayment implications here are important to provide a better economic and market foundation than Instagram likes from bots or Reddit karma.
The awesome part is anyone can fork off their client and make the same Fiat/Web 2.0 mistakes all over again.
Value for value โlikes those are public masturbation
Yeah build it how you like
That math assumes attention is spread evenly, but the larger the group, the more attention is concentrated and celebrity is the determining factor.
I don't think it relies on that assumption... I'm assuming there's a power law, but the total amplitude is arbitrary depending on how popular your interest is.
Sure the level starts higher for "normie" interests -- food, sports, gardening, politics, Jaysus, etc -- i.e. the things people talk about on Nostr other than Bitcoin. It's the reason why when I talk about pinball or urbanism it gets zero engagement because those are relatively tiny communities and there's statistically "0" people here who care.
Having a more or less popular interest just moves the curve up or down, it doesn't change the nature of the argument.
Yeah it does start to resemble a public ledger, which while neat has its drawbacks.
Payment targets with messages is nice. Could even be given a higher priority for notifications in a client for that sort of use case.
Oh gosh and then for the zaps people Really don't want to be public. Yeah
You can just build whatever you want. God speed and God bless nostr
Idk the technical of the spec and stuff.
But idk why we can't have 'zaps' without it being shown everywhere.
I'm assuming the zaps spec has all the visibility stuff baked in.
I liked your meme, I send you some satoshis
I don't need anyone else to know, don't even care if the guy who made the meme knows it came from me.
But it's nice to be able to send some sats to person who makes an Interesting post or funny meme.
I could care less if anyone else saw it or not.
This plus
@Cake Wallet implementing NWC would make nostr much less of an echo chamber
CBOR would be a better fit for nostr than JSON, especially since signed json is hell on earth that leads to retarded things such as โcanonical jsonโ.
I cant go back to normal public masturbation it just feels like a step backwards.
Oh, that would be ๐ฅ
That's tipping. I left that in.
1. A zap is an event sent to a Lightning server, instead of a relay. It tells them who you want to send a tip to and what relays to publish the receipt to.
2. The Lightning server publishes the receipt event and that is what shows up in the feed.
You could just tip someone directly or only do step 1. In practice, the servers have always done 1 and 2, but if they are reconfigured, I might bring back 1.
A 3. alternative is that a LN server DMs the recipient or sends them an encrypted receipt. But that is not in the spec.
1, 2, and 3 require you to trust someone else's LN server to follow your instructions.
yep, wubs me the wong way
Okay I see, thanks for distinguishing 'tipping' from a 'zap'
Honestly in my mind they were one in the same.
It's not only interest, it's that within larger selections brand is essential to ease choice.
The point being that the Power Law tends to negate the effect of micro-transactions. If I receive 2k sats/week, now, even a 10x increase is 20k. The equivalent of $15 USD. That's less than one hours' worth of income working minimum wage, here, so that it offers little economic incentive.
Now, we do have people sending us larger amounts, but those tend to be direct LN payments or on-chain, not zaps. If you aren't personally very popular and famous (this
@Kendy npub's comment is indicative of wider sentiment), or part of some gated reward pool or ranking system, like
@Nusa is building, then zaps offer little economic value.
And they offer negative value in a social context, such as this client. If anything, it's demoralizing and discouraging to see who is getting the most zaps.
Jack, fake e-girls, scammers, engagement farmers, people who have received grants or VC money and shortly thereafter rug us all, paid memers and influencers, etc. I would really rather not know. I know plenty of people who were so grossed out by that, that they left.
The tipping mechanism is a client-side feature, called "payment handlers". Stuff like NWC, or Alby Connect, etc. That help you create an invoice or open an app with the form prefilled with the receiver's account.
You can use NWC and just skip zaps.
I'm going to consider this argument as I see the merit, but I also see why the concept was popular to begin with.
As a side note, your profile hasn't loaded on Amethyst for me for weeks. I've got to get used to your npub to recognise you.
@Amethyst I'm seeing this complaint a lot. Are you searching any metadata relays?
Never thought I'd read a sentence like this, thats deep man ๐
I also prefer payment targets over zaps. But what about duplicate 10133 events when the person changes relays ? Say you publish your payto addresses to your relays, then change most of your write relays, then change your payto addresses and publish them to the new relays. What to make of all those obsolete 10133 events that contain obsolete information ?
