Replies (96)
Any sources you recommend for a layman to understand ?
I need to both understand :
1- why is CSAM and spammers are an existential threat. As of now I'm unconvinced.
2-what are the impacts and costs of the proposed solution.
Cheers.
Liar.
You're the liar.
Main character syndrome is strong in this one
1) Bitcoin's security depends on a supermajority of the economy using their own full node. CSAM means every full node will be actively engaging in child porn distribution. Most people will never be willing to do that. Without people using their own nodes, Bitcoin becomes just a worse version of fiat (including, but not limited to, inflation, seizures, etc). Spam makes it harder to run a full node, so is a similar threat over a longer period of time.
STFU Shitcoin Magazine employee
This real world transactions applied with BIP110 and without it.
Compromised/ Sell out people like
@ODELL and
@DETERMINISTIC OPTIMISM 🌞 will never understand this.
View quoted note →Liar 🤪
But it is only making it slightly more difficult to do it. It just removes one avenue. I don't see the point in sacrificing decentralization for such a small gain. Reeks of shitcoinery to me.
There's also a risk bad actors will retaliate and/or counter-fork, but those risks only go down with more RDTS adoption.
No, it makes CSAM completely impossible.
Decentralization is not sacrificed at all either. RDTS only helps improve decentralisation.
It has nothing to do with me, troll
BIP 110 fixes a lot of weaknesses that are exploited like inscriptions, runes, large OP_RETURNs and more. It generally protects Bitcoin from non monetary large data abuse.
>Bitcoin's security depends on a supermajority of the economy using their own full node
this is just not true and it will never happen
Narrator Voice: "It doesn't address anything at all"
Look I respect your opinion, but I'm still unconvinced by that argument.
There is a difference between CSAM images on a hard drive and block data. At most we are talking about filling entire blocks with 4 Mb per 10 minutes that are basically unaccessible by non-techies ?
Motivated individuals are able to access such images regardless. So idk what restricting data is going to lead to.
I don't see the state going to each and every home to try to restrict some random data that's hard to pin down.
To be convinced of your point I would need to see some arrests and a weakening of the network.
@npub1gy86...2yz7 your spidey senses should really tingle when someone tells you something extremely controversial has no downsides worth discussing.
Main character syndrome meets 'everyone's a troll' copium
Luke really said 'I am the main character AND you're all NPCs' without saying it
There is NO difference at all between CSAM on a hard drive and CSAM via Core30's data storage mechanism. And you're ignoring the whole distribution part. And yes, they are accessible by non-techies.
The goal is not to stop motivated individuals from accessing the images. The goal is to not be in possession or distributing them myself just by running a node.
And we don't have to restrict specific data - we just ban *all* data storage.
By the time there are arrests, it is way too late. Once CSAM is on the chain, it can never be removed.
I have met both of you in person and respect both of you tremendously.
There must be a more productive way to communicate than name calling.
Main character syndrome is a thing, and Bitcoin doesn't need any of y'all. Must hurt doesn't it?
I'm kind of confused about this whole thing. But I don't trust core devs and it seems that bitcoin was meant to allow for node runners and miners to decide what code they want to run for a reason.
I'm more concerned with who wrote that code, their connections, their liabilities, their employers more than what code they write.
"sacrificing decentralization" ????
how do you come to that conclusion?
its the opposite. you make running a node easier. and purposeful.
King DickButt from shitcoin magazine returns
Liar
you’re getting BRUTALLY Nostr-mogged right now. Incredible
SlopForkMaxxer meets NostrMogging
I support this.
lmfao
Where is this video from
The title is in the note below.
That doesn't sound like his voice.
its not, that is why - AI Whiteboard.
Just googled it, its on youtube.
"Ai generated whiteboard explainer video of Matthew Kratter's video which was titled "Answering Objections To The BIP-110 Soft Fork""
So Im supposed to be convinced by heavily biased ai slop?
Nothing and noone is supposed.
You are free to watch Matt Kratter's videos and make your own decisions.
As of the video in question, its very very accurate, like Matt's videos are.
The video is labeled "debate" and then is super biased towards one side tho. That's disingenuous
Question: who has the rough job of sitting down, checking each transaction manually to see if there is CSAM within and pushing the reject button on it?
Hopefully an AI can do this.
I thought about it and I will do it for 1BTC a year plus unlimited free therapy and snacks
"Completely impossible"? So you are saying that there is absolutely no way to create a valid transaction that holds arbitrary data? Forever?
This is interesting and depressing. I never see any arguments from you guys. Just namecalling and appeals to authority. (More namecalling this time)
I would expect there to be some attempts at debate to properly disprove the other side. Even just copy/paste if you have anything good. Why have you given up?
I am all for not trusting core devs automatically. Verify what they do!
But you certainly should not trust the Knots people either. They are being very underhanded about this situation.
Just the "this is super important and needs to be done now or it is the end of bitcoin" narrative they are running is so scammy. That is what phone scammers do to old people too, trying to stress them in to not paying actual attention to the issues.
Take a step back, look at the actual facts, and look at the track record of the people on either side. IMO some bad decisions were made by Core, but Tooooonnnnsss of red flags on the Knots side. But those are my opinions. Form your own!
Oh yeah, we really want an AI controlling which transactions are valid and which are not. An AI trained/controlled by who?
Spam controls through filtering efforts rely on the filtering rules to be updated regularly, as new circumventions are invented. Controlling the filters mean controlling the system.
Also Luke has a history of wanting to ban various things that he does not like, like gambling. He tried to sneak that in to the Gentoo Linux distro... He will go down that road again soon enough.
Liar
Until it expires obviously
QED
I'll do it for a fee
The debate ended last year. The only thing to do now is watch the game play out, point, and laugh.
You realize this is a fallacious argument, right? Surely you've at least taken a logic course.
The debate is between the different points of view and their arguments in the video.
Not really. You can watch it again. It reveals it's bias immediately. "Space that people think should be for one thing and one thing only, money"
That's not an objective statement at all.
I gues you don't know what the word objective means.
Also, that doesn't say "only" in that part you highlighted.
Also also, the white paper and Satoshi aren't the bible and god of Bitcoin. People can helave their own opinions on it.
Bitcoin Is Freedom Money.
Agreed. But that is just an opinion if you put the word "only" in it.
I disagree with #3. They glossed over just how asymmetric bip110 with respect to consensus. This code allows a minority of node runners to win. Most softforks previously required an overwhelming consensus. Is it for the better?
Maybe...
Totally agree
We understand you perfectly
CSAM must be stopped
It was - until Core V30 came along.
No Core V30 and no RTDS countermeasures would have been ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY
There is indeed a real need
CSAM on the blockchain, put there by some unsuspecting miner, is now possible thanks to Core's modification. RTDS stops the attack and helps keep bitcoin decentral by making it long term easier to run a node...
Luke is right (again)
And how much block space is that edge case going to cost all the node runners?
Nothing at all
It's not primarily about cost
It's about every node broadcasting/hosting CSAM, opening them up to legal risk which could then be used (think governments) to take the nodes down. Convienienly shutting down the decentralized network.
Oh then it's a piece of cake to up the supply. Think attack vector, cause this is one
Governments are happy to share that shit.
Thats Lopp’s defense.
—An Ad hominem attack.
Think about that for a moment.
🧡👊🏻🍻
Are you retarded. He's clearly mocking Luke who says this everywhere.
THE POINT IS THAT HE HAS NO ACTUAL DEFENSE 🙄
Everyone says the same about Luke when he just responds "liar" a million times. I'm not even on the side of core and I think lopp's business is retarded, but Luke and his followers are way more retarded.
I think Bitcoin is money and hate jpegs on chain , but y'all have done 0 to convince anyone. Most of what I've seen from the Knotzis is "jpegs on Bitcoin = CSAM" and then "liar" to anyone who disagrees.
WHO IS YALL? I'M ON "THE SIDE" OF BITCOIN, THATS IT. BTC ISNT A DATABASE FOR NONSENSE, PRETTY SIMPLE. YOU SAY YOU HATE JPEGS ON CHAIN, YET YOU'RE NOT CONVINCED THAT JPEGS SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE CHAIN - DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO ME
Bc I don't think consensus valid transactions should be "removed". Removing anything from the chain also implies some authority outside of the code. Not interested in a conversation if you're gunna be an all caps retard tho.
Some support freedom, some support tyranny.
BANNING DICKBUTTS FROM MONEY IS TYRRANY? YOU PEOPLE ARE RETARDED
Authority to ban "Dickbutts" is authority to ban anyone.
You work for the fed?
GET FUCKED SHITCOINER
You're free to put them on nostr.... Here I'll get you started
Anyone vs anything. Big difference
you dont get it.
its a format difference, that also limits data size. it doesn't target "dickbutts".
bitcoin is a monetary timechain.
not a datachain.
you should question the people who wanna corrupt the best money on earth instead.
bitcoin always maximized being a money and a timechain.
bip110 is also taproot bugfix as well.
Freedom of Speech is about Speech. The hardest money is about money. Nostr is a public square, censorship free speech. #Bitcoin is the hardest money.
Not everything is everything…think!
I sent funds yesterday via my node running core without any issues.
The use of money IS speech.
and?
Nothing is broke.
Oh boy. Think before you speak. Maybe you‘ll get zapped.
i just used my credit card.
nothing is broke.
im using this app on my pc, but it has a memory leak and fills uo my memory overtime. but it works for now, i used it.
nothing is broke.
my backend uses a public firebase store, so all of our customer data is leaked. but it works still. nothing is broke.
that logic makes no sense.
when it comes to bitcoin we always try to make it more and more efficient.
that was the idea of taproot, you didn't have to put every on the chain in order to spend the outputs. so it makes it more efficient.
the way taproot designed also removes the need for OP_IF if you are using OP_IF in taproot, you are trying to write segwit v1 scripts with tapscripts. makes no sense. you have no reason to use taproot.
and its also used as an exploit tricking your node into believing random data in taproot is valid script code. defeats the whole purpose of taproot's creation. making it less efficient. and bloated with data. on the timechain.
segwit v1 didn't have the same issue because there's a filter for it. but that filter is disabled on tapscripts for other abstract reasons.
bip110 very elegantly closes this unintended exploit hole. and fixes taproot.
the people you listen to are just trying to gaslight you into hating a soft fork that is just restoring bitcoin into its 2023 state. what was the default already.
No we don't.
Have you ever mined. It becomes less efficient. Fees also go up if transactions become less efficient.
If your priority is efficiency, there are better altcoins for you to use.
If it is about money - I sent money and the other received money. No one could censor me.
Luke wants control to censor. That is evil.
bitcoin is all about efficiency, without the efficiency it wouldn't be decentralized, and you wouldn't be able to run it.
i don't think you understand what "efficiency" means here. confusing mining with bitcoin.
we have 10 min block time, we have 1-4MB block size, so chain doesnt grow too fast.
everything about bitcoin is efficiency.
luke controls nothing, its just a soft fork, fixing what was broken in 2023.
bitcoin is different because you can run your own node.
and we wanna make it more and more efficient to run it.
bitcoin maximizes being a money, this means we always prioritize monetary use and ability to run a node over everything else. it trumps every other thing.
bitcoin doesn't maximize for speed, or privacy, or data storage.
bitcoin maximizes for decentralization first, because without it, nothing else matters.
decentralization requires more nodes, which requires bitcoin to be easy to run and be efficient.
bitcoin is different because it maximizes for a monetary network, and optimizes everything for that.
again, you are just being gaslighted, by people who don't care about 21 million limit, and decentralization of nodes. or listening to influencers who has no idea about what is happening or what they are talking about.
No, Bitcoin is not and has NEVER been about efficiency. The fact that it is decentralized is anti-efficient.
Efficiency would be housing all transactions in a single database, not hundreds of thousands of copies in each node.
Efficiency would be increasing block sizes and reducing times between blocks.
Mining IS Bitcoin. It is how transactions are placed into the chain. Efficiency is artificially decreasing mining difficulty or removing mining altogether, going to proof of stake or another alternative.
Maybe you don't understand what efficiency is and that Bitcoin was setup to be inefficient, which protects its decentralized nature.
Luke controls everything you do. It is all his code. 100%. No input from anyone. He wants to control it all. He is a cult leader.
No, you are just taking the word "efficient" and using it for the word "speed".
Not only that applying it into mining and everything else.
We are talking about running a bitcoin node being a bitcoin user.
If the bitcoin node runs more efficient it becomes easier to run, and should require less space.
Bitcoin is decentralized because running a bitcoin node is easier than running an Ethereum node.
I'm able to run a bitcoin node on my phone because its efficient. I don't need a huge hard drive and an expensive machine, because its efficient to run bitcoin.
We have the timechain to prevent double spending, it solves that issue. But it brings another issue, the chain has to be synced between nodes to agree on the history.
Mining is a process that slows down the block creation, (and also produces more bitcoin as side effect).
Which keeps running a bitcoin node/client efficient and lightweight.
Which keeps bitcoin is decentralized, meaning you can verify everything locally.
Bitcoin is setup to be easy to run and be efficient, that's why you can run it. Because its easy/optimized/efficient. Keeping the network of nodes decentralized.
You can't debunk any of these, they are just facts.
"Luke controls everything you do. It is all his code. 100%. No input from anyone. He wants to control it all. He is a cult leader. " This sentence makes no logical sense, pure ragebait. Everybody runs their own node, nobody controls anything. Luke didn't write it all, he didn't even write it, there are multiple contributors.
Even IF that was true (which isn't), I can say the same thing for Core Organization Entity. Bitcoin Core controls all of the bitcoin core's code. It's one entity doing what ever it wants. It's not decentralized, its a parliament/democracy. Difference is, in a democracy only one outcome becomes real yes or no, but in a decentralized system yes and no can live in parallel and compete in the free market.
So having more impls is decentralization, not having more people in one entity.
---
bitcoin is all about efficiency, and optimizing for monetary use case and decentralization.
every little detail about bitcoin decided to optimize for these.
efficiency was a big part of why taproot is created.
if you were sleeping on the wheel during segwit v1, didnt even notice taproot.
why do you care so much about a soft fork that is just restoring what was the default before?
it changes nothing, it just restores what was the default before.
the change already happened with taproot, did you argue with people like this back then?
and now you are arguing with people trying to fix what was broken.
if you think about it a little, this soft fork doesn't change bitcoin, just restores the previous defaults. fixing taproot. and simple, and temporary just in case. expires after 1 year. so we dont have to do hard fork if we wanna tweak it a little. its a very humble and basic soft fork. then ask yourself, who would be against this?
because some influencers told you to?
maybe enter to the rabbit hole from somewhere:
BIP-110
BIP-110: Temporarily Limit Arbitrary Data in Bitcoin
A one-year consensus soft fork to limit arbitrary data storage in Bitcoin, protecting its purpose as sound, permissionless money.
You are not a bitcoiner
You are clueless.
You are trying to win, instead of trying to learn something.
You are only hurting yourself.
I see you are ignorant of natural rights and their application.
I assume you were educated at a government school.
As long as everyone follows your dictates no one will be excluded?
Sounds amazing!!!!
Do you think there’s a reason to have different words to describe different things? Speech, money, thinking…if everything is anything, why bother.
