Replies (55)
Laws are meant to be broken!!!!!!
Christ, some level headed thinking.
Why don't we all run our relays behind onion addresses and takedown request won't have a recipient?!
When I tried using amethyst through tor it was too slow for my taste. Probably I did something wrong.
Onion sites are not as resistant as you may think. While you have a point, there would need to be a massive amount of onion relays to make it work.
Something I'm pointing out for a long time - a decentralized swarm.
Make relays as easy to setup as snowflake proxies. Make onion addresses ephemeral, rotate them, add multiple network paths, etc etc
But decentralized networks are not an easy beast to tame, they behave like a living organism with their own rules.
Tor is inherently slow. Same with VPNs.
It's just routing so I mean, makes sense
Tor is not slow. It *was* slow. But tor itself is not a solution. What I noticed, there are new types of networks emerging which use multi-transport: tor, i2p, clearnet, p2p, even emails and have remote gateways between those transports.
And I think multi-transport is the future. Taking into account extremly aggresive tactics from the UK attacking privacy and trying to control everything, it may be the only way for a decentralized network to survive
That's one of the reasons why
@utxo the webmaster 🧑💻 (sorry to drag you into this) removed Tor support from Wisp: people like convenience and would never tolerate a slower Twitter/Instagram/TikTok replacement.
But we could all have a local relay, either something like Citrine or in the client, which fetches all notes from our followings and things would be fine, performance-wise.
If they are not resistant at least we would find out 😅
You make great points. However, if
@primal was asked to take something down, you wouldn’t see it using the primal client because the primal client shows you what’s inside their caching relay. You don’t see things from the actual relays. So primal users don’t actually have the same level of censorship resistance because they’re not viewing content from relays.
And that’s a choice primal users are either making or can get educated about and then move to a different client.
I was not initially aware and always just thought the UX was shit when I muted users or was interacting with someone controversial. Now I use multiple clients
You did not see the other devs that got the email dox
@TheGrinderOnly
@jb55 who is a piece of shit decided it was a good idea
On a side note I would bet that
@jb55 is a huge hypocrite and would censor and/or dox people if it benefited him and his shitty client
the German government is already keeping an eye on NOSTR, so we will have to see how relay operators and clients react to one of the countries that have strict laws in which one cannot make fun of their politicians.
apart from the nature of the publications being only json files, anyone can download another's publications and retransmit them in their relay.
apart from the fact that executing relays are not that difficult to execute.
so if thousands of people ran their own relays and all republished the same posts they asked to remove, would the method they have been using to censor social media still be viable?
They are just waiting for a slip up. Relay administrators should refuse service to those fuckers.
Yep — transport pluralism beats transport purity. Keep the reputation key portable, keep routes interchangeable, and avoid turning one network path into one legal or metadata chokepoint.
I don’t think enough primal users are aware that they’re making this choice
So keep educating them!
actually a smart choice by primal actually if you ask me. changes nothing about the protocol.
As a primal user, you will not see the posts of users that primal censors. Even if you never mute that user, ALL primal users will not be able to see that user’s posts if primal chooses to filter those posts out of their caching relay. You’re not seeing notes from the relays. You’re seeing notes from the primal caching relay. This isn’t very different from centralized Twitter. The saving grace is that you can use a different client to see a censored user’s notes. But how would you know that user is being censored? How would you know if they’re partially censored? And if you have to navigate out of primal at some point to see notes that they don’t want you to see, why not just use a different client entirely right now?
Fairly easy to spot the censored users because the UX sucks ass and you see people you are following responding to themselves 🤣
Again it’s a free market and open protocol which is why we are all here.
Primal is a great tool to onboard new users and grow nostr adoption. I know you probably do not want to hear this but We need even more normie friendly clients that are even more censored than primal haha…
we as people that care about the protocol need to inform/educate users of the tradeoffs
I dont understand the question. As you say, "you can use a different client to see a censored user’s notes." That is the entire point.
I do think that good alternatives to primal are very important, but again, imo what they're doing is far from stupid from a liability perspective and changes nothing about whether you can still access the content.
I didn’t know Fuckstr was censored while using primal. I found out by random chance. What if primal censored you? I would have no way of knowing that you’re censored or that you’re still posting while I use primal. As a primal user, I’d just assume that you stopped using nostr. I would have no reason to switch to a different client. This is a problem.
I understand the liability stuff is a problem. The state exists and it is violent. That’s fine. Primal can remove the posts from the primal relay if they really needed to. But they’re censoring through the caching relay which is effectively censoring other relays connected to the user’s primal client. Everyone using primal would then be subject to the same censorship attack. Connecting to the damus relay, or any other relay on primal, doesn’t matter if the caching relay is providing you the notes. How is this nostr? In terms of centralization, I don’t see a difference between primal and twitter at this point. And even though I’m sure Miljan is a much better person than Elon, he is still human and prone to the same shortcomings that all humans have.
Not always. Primal straight up just loses notes sometimes. For whatever reason, notifications sometimes appear for me on other clients but not primal. Sure that’s more a result of incompetence than malice, but the system is still flawed.
If we build a bunch of centralized nostr clients that majority of normies use, and fail to provide censorship resistance to, what have we actually accomplished? I really don’t understand what the goal is. We’ve lost the plot.
Assuming that we interact with similar people and I am still around posting notes you would have a horrendous experience viewing posts from anyone you follow who is still interacting with me
Again I think there are better ways to handle problematic users/notes like how YakiHonne shows that the reply is from a muted user but I do not run primal and there could be reasons why primal takes the approach they take
"How would you know that user is being censored?"
That's why nostr needs apps with p2p data verification. Complex version would be apps contacting each other over Tor and comparing databases, simple version would just be every post/reply including an attached hash of the user's/thread's other last 10 posts.
It seems like this could be solved by making those parts of Primal optional, so that it becomes like any other client where you can choose your own relays entirely. I had a conversation with
@Vitor Pamplona about that a while back where he said the client would have no defaults if he had his way. I assume this sort of thing is one reason why.
I don't mind some level of moderation. I don't want to see child porn (and I did early on before I understood what Global was and how relays work). The whole point in my mind should be the choice of relays based on the sort of moderation you want. Not that no relay has any moderation at all. I don't want to see npubs posting child porn, for example. I'm just using that as a nuclear example. But there are other issues like harassment, illegal content, etc. I dont want to suffer those things. But I also may not want what Primal is doing. Maybe I think they go too far. Cool. Fuckem. Choice is the important issue.
And if Primal doesn't give that choice, it just isn't the client for those who want the choice. It's still better than X in the sense that you can take your key and leave (assuming they don't prevent that at some point - that would be a different issue).
Agree 100% with your post in general principle, but...
Fuckstr's content is only a whisker above ReplyGuy's content. Lines have to be drawn somewhere, and I'm fine with relay operators drawing them.
(I can't believe I just said something that sounds like a defence of Primal, though. They are spiteful censorious princesses, but they are still Nostr)
The fact that anyone knows his name is Will is part of the issue. Devs and Relay Operators would fair much better if they stopped trying to be public figures. He can obviously do what he wants but nostr will be anti fragile if most people don't dox themselves.
Create npub, develop cool FOSS, publish code to nostr. Never reveal real name. Never check DMs from people you don't follow. Only delete what you want to delete on your own relay.
Create businesses that have reputation tied to npub.
That's my 2 satoshis.
Very good!
There are a lot of things that have to go a certain way for you to notice that. It might be a while before you realize it. In other cases you may not even realize it at all.
I love the idea of making it optional to connect to the caching relay. That would be a good thing to use with low bandwidth.
I don’t really have an issue with relays censoring certain things. My issue is that primal can effectively censor someone on all relays because primal users aren’t connecting to relays. Not a problem if they use another client.
lolita drunk again🍷
beggar journalist no zaps from
@primal 😱🍷actually
you can use a different caching service and add your own relays as well
Yes, I encourage everyone on Android to use #Citrine 🍋 . The pre-release version is even an aggregator.
If you use Wisp Classic v1.0.5, it works with Citrine and Amber login.
The simplest way to deal with it is to just be more transparent and visibly mark profiles that have been redacted cuz they post nothing but garbage. You could even leave their posts in the feeds, to keep from breaking the threads, but put
REDACTED FOR BREAKING TOS
in place of their notes. That would also give everyone the opportunity to mute people you redact, so that they don't see The Horrors when using other clients.
Some people will be angry about that, but other people will be like, Thank you for shutting up the crappy people who try to litter the feed. What you shouldn't do, with a network full of software developers and system admins, is pretend like you didn't do anything and get caught and let it turn into a scandal.
I also actively suppress some posts, client-side. Not from particular people (yet), but kind 1 notes full of machine-produced random strings and stuff. There's a lot of sloppy content being generated and I try to filter it out. I make no claims for completeness.
One of them was a computer the other is a person
I've seen some of those notes in my custom client. It's unusable without some degree of filtering.
In general, if people in my sphere have hidden a note, I'm probably not going to want to see it either. If you decide it shouldn't be on the relay, I trust that I probably don't want to see it. If I'm being an asshole or hurting the relay somehow, boot me off 😂
I agree on the silent aspect of it. It should be transparent so people can decide if that's really what they want to use.
Fired up a strfry instance.. feel free to use it
ws://iukocw7dzz6pudloz4b427kyo244cqhtqlgq252lsqbcy5jqueazxoad.onion/
My client refused it. Might have to tweak it to get that working.
I think Citrine is okay with it.
Try again. It was down for a bit because I had to change something
No, it doesn't want to use ws:// for anything that isn't local. I tried whitelisting the URL, but that didn't help. Would need to be wss:// or I have to figure out a workaround.
Mobile? Which browser?
Mobile and laptop didn't work. Firefox.
I'll see if I can tweak it, later. I gotta leave the house, for a while.
@Enki you've got an ip2 and tor connections, right? Can I test against those?
Firefox worked for me. Do you have that Jumble upstream setting "Allow insecure connections"?
I do. Please test away. I am kind of having problems with the I2P stuff. Im troubleshooting that, but Tor should be working. I also Just realized that I need to expose the paid relay to Tor as well.
I'm doing day job stuff at the moment, but give me a few hours and I'll have that fixed.
No rush. I don't have a deadline.
I don't. Let me go see how Cody did it...
Which Cody?
When you had my onion relay as a read relay I could see notes coming in from people replying to you. I know that's how it works but it's still exciting 😅
Cool. Trying to get Tor and I2P working over a web client is pretty lame. Seems to work over the Tor browser, after my initial changes, but I haven't tried it.
