Replies (55)
Facts!
Good complements to each other.
Does he mean something like censorship resistance by being on multiple relays than losing privacy because it's everywhere? One downpoint I see on simpleX is lack of privacy and anonimity for relay runners.
Man, the number of fellas I meet here that don’t understand the difference between privacy and being a lurker….
And we are luky to have both
indeed! Hence,
@npub1sn0w...jdv9 left #nostr (I guess). 😬🤓
I love simplex
Can somone explain how a direct P2P connection like say I2P is not censorship resistant since it also focuses on privacy? I think this is more of a misunderstanding between a want to be social and a want for secrecy. Nostr isn't private because you are literally attaching a public/private key pair to every transmission. Censorability is about centralization versus decentralization. It is not inherent to privacy that you centralize your protocol.
Interesting. Was this on NOSTR or in Simplex?
I don't think privacy and censorship resistance are necessarily inversely related like this, such that something being more private must be less censorship resistant, and things that are more censorship resistant must be less private.
You can have things that are neither very private at all or censorship resistant, such as Twitter and Facebook.
You can have things that are very censorship resistant, but not very private, such as #Nostr.
You can have things that are both censorship resistant and private, such as Keet.
And I would assume you can have things that are very private, but maybe struggle to be censorship resistant, which the founder of SimpleX seems to say applies in that case.
View quoted note →I don't think so. He's on Twitter. He took a long break before. Then he checked back in on Nostr and said he was impressed with the progress. He'll be back :)
X
Oh I see. I probably misunderstood Jack's talk in one of the nostriga conf about Snowden couldn't make one of the relays work on tor and that we (nostr) are leaking too much packets. One of the threads on here mentioned that Snowden left due to privacy issue of Nostr. Hopefully he'll be back ☺️🤞
💯💯💯
Ava
#SimpleX founder Evgeny Poberezkin speaking truth. #Nostr focuses on censorship resistance with privacy as an afterthought. SimpleX focus is on privacy. Do not confuse the two.
> **Censorship resistance and privacy are in a contradiction - the more censorship resistant a communication solution is, the less private it is, inevitably.**
>
> Evgeny Poberezkin
#ikitao #opensource #privacy #nostr #censorship
Someone can easily run a SimpleX relay anonymously, it's no different to Nostr in that sense. It's just the 1 company operating the preset servers in the app, but there's planned to be more in the future, and all of those will be hosted by known companies that signed a legally binding contract to run unmodified server code, and not logging IP addresses except for DDoS prevention. The idea is that anonymous relay operators have no incentive not to store the minimal user data they can access (mainly IP address). You'd want Nostr relays to be run by anonymous operators in an environment where government demand for censorship is high, as relay operators can't be compelled to takedown content if nobody knows who they are. Delivery redundancy is planned (
GitHub
simplex-chat/simplex-chat
SimpleX - the first messaging network operating without user identifiers of any kind - 100% private by design! iOS, Android and desktop apps 📱! ...
Censorship on SimpleX isn't possible in the same way as it is on a public social network, as everything is end-to-end encrypted, so there's not a lot of reason to be actively using multiple relays at the same time for delivering messages, unlike Nostr.
Assuming im using @OXchat over Tor are there really any meaningful privacy gains? Or even a regular giftwrapped dm over Tor strait to my citrine?
"No usurnames" seems to be a gimmick. Anyone can spin up a infinite number of npub's. What is the effective difference in obsec between infinity on noster and zero on simplex?
It was really hard to get friends and family on signal, and then they started shitcoining and I'm like: yeah I don't do that anymore. I can't imagine telling my mom to follow me on noster but dm me on simpleX.
The someone who faked
@jack ‘s nostr account and was encouraging people to follow him on SimpleX did not go over well with me. Sorry not a fan. Change my mind
Why would anyone think that @jack would want DMs from random people here or via simplex? Obvious scam.
#asknostr how easy it for a freak to figure out the identity of someone on nostr
View quoted note →I think it's a focus now for Nostr as DMs related NIPs are improving and there is Anonostr.com 😏
It's a cool site, but privacy and anonymity, though they may overlap, are not the same. Privacy is the control you have over your data. Anonymity is faking or hiding your identity.
We love to see it, but, like I said, Nostr's focus is and has been on censorship resistance with privacy as an afterthought.
I don't think I quite understand it, for example I use the session a lot and it seems to me, according to the previous verification, quite private, secure and robust.
Lol yeah a singular pubkey as an identity is not good for privacy at all…
Bitcoin addresses (hashed pubkeys) aren’t supposed to be reused, but that crypto hasn’t been inherited in the nostr architecture…
If you're talking about the Session messahing app, then not really.
X (formerly Twitter)
SimpleX Chat (@SimpleXChat) on X
@JefferysKee @startpage That "PCS and Deniability are not very practically beneficial properties" is a view that most security researchers and tech...
Encryption security was downgraded based on incrorrect statements, transport layer uses their own onion routing network that requires node operators to invest ~$1000 in a cryptocurrency.
You're better off using SimpleX over Tor.
The trade off, spread the word or P2P. Silencing 2 people is easy, silencing a crowd is more complex. If your ideas or proof of work are not spread and it’s silenced, did it even exist? Open source is now more important than ever. If we don’t spread the fire 🔥 of decentralizing speech and money we will be caged.
Session is not recommended for privacy. They inexplicably got rid of forward secrecy, and the pay-per-server crypto model is fundamentally flawed. Session devs are actively abandoning ship due to the disaster that is their underlying crypto scheme. With other, far superior platforms available, there's really no good reason to continue using Session.
Monero brains breaking as we speak.
Ava
#SimpleX founder Evgeny Poberezkin speaking truth. #Nostr focuses on censorship resistance with privacy as an afterthought. SimpleX focus is on privacy. Do not confuse the two.
> **Censorship resistance and privacy are in a contradiction - the more censorship resistant a communication solution is, the less private it is, inevitably.**
>
> Evgeny Poberezkin
#ikitao #opensource #privacy #nostr #censorship
Censorship resistance is only needed in public communication.
If it’s private, no one is suppose to even know you are communicating, how would you even be censored?
I'm not sure what you're referring to, abandoning ship that's why updates were made?
I didn't say there's nobody left to push updates. I'm talking about the lead devs and leadership who are fleeing following the collapse of the underlying crypto. If you'd like to see a specific breakdown of Session (as well as other private messengers), and it's various attributes, I suggest checking out
SecuChart - interactive secure messenger feature comparison
Chat app filters and adaptive colored property difference highlighting all work using CSS-only without JS. Contributions welcome!
It illuminates the platform's shortcomings (and benefits) in comparison with others. In terms of privacy, the most significant flaw (self-imposed) is the removal of perfect forward secrecy. And there are a handful of other significant concerns that are outlined. Again, there's no good reason to continue using Session given the facts, and the availability of superior options.
A direct P2P connection over the internet is not private, as both ISPs can see who you're connecting to. P2P over an overlay network like Tor or I2P is better, but still not perfect:
Privacy Guides Community
SimpleX vs. Cwtch, who is right?
So clearly one of these people is lying to us, but I don’t have the technical knowledge and capabilities to tell who is right and who is wrong. ...
I think many of those same points apply to I2P?
When you say, "focuses on privacy", I think you have to define what you mean by "privacy". It's become a bit of an ambiguous buzzword that means many different things to many different people.
Truth is uncomfortable
Not really clear to me why they are mutually exclusive or if this is even necessarily so 🤔
It's a matter of foundational focus
I don't think this makes much sense.
By "Focuses on privacy" I mean I2P is anonymous by default. Unless you reveal yourself, all traffic is encrypted and your IP is hidden.
None of those points really apply to I2P.
-Non persistant tunnels as opposed to persistent TOR circuits
-The inproxy/outproxy model at minimum doubles the amount of "nodes" that would need to be captured for "unmasking" even then it is packet switched.
-IRC routed through I2P is absolutely not like a TOR proxy.
Censorship resistance and privacy, are they really mutually exclusive?
Ava
#SimpleX founder Evgeny Poberezkin speaking truth. #Nostr focuses on censorship resistance with privacy as an afterthought. SimpleX focus is on privacy. Do not confuse the two.
> **Censorship resistance and privacy are in a contradiction - the more censorship resistant a communication solution is, the less private it is, inevitably.**
>
> Evgeny Poberezkin
#ikitao #opensource #privacy #nostr #censorship
+1
"all of those will be hosted by known companies that signed a legally binding contract to run unmodified server code, and not logging IP addresses except for DDoS prevention." Looks like there's too much trust involved, what am I missing?
If it's private you don't want your information everywhere, which hampers censorship resistance.
Ava
#SimpleX founder Evgeny Poberezkin speaking truth. #Nostr focuses on censorship resistance with privacy as an afterthought. SimpleX focus is on privacy. Do not confuse the two.
> **Censorship resistance and privacy are in a contradiction - the more censorship resistant a communication solution is, the less private it is, inevitably.**
>
> Evgeny Poberezkin
#ikitao #opensource #privacy #nostr #censorship
it seems like a dichotomy
censorship resistance is not getting something everywhere, it's being able to do something *censorable*, in a way that can't *be censored*
if we have a conversation that we should not have, but no one knows that it ever happened, we resisted censorship, even if the conversation is wiped after the fact. We did something we were not supposed to do, therefore mission complete.
Full censorship resistance doesn't mean never being able to delete posts, that makes it worse actually because the more time passes and the post still exists, the greater it has chances of being found, or becoming censorable content that wasn't before, and have greater consequences later
It'd be better for content to be "gated" of sorts, look at private trackers for example, you can't censor what you can't see and you also can't see what you're not invited to
🍎 vs 🍊
To get a message from person A to person B,
1. Person B needs to know they want to hear from person A
2. There needs to be a channel to achieve this.
With privacy, person B needs to be listening for person A through a communication channel that is inconspicuous to those trying to disrupt communication
Censorship resistance is about person B discovering person A. The communication channel needs to be unstoppable.
Of course, and by that example we see there is no contradiction and the communication can be both private and censorship resistant, since we can assume there could also be person C D E F G ... times infinite and in that scenario it's not easy to censor A and B if they look just like C and D
Obvious but I agree
@BoadeeThe goal is still to reduce trust in servers, and SimpleX does that better than any other private messaging network, but having anonymous node operators doesn't improve privacy, as they've got no incentive not to store the user data they can access.
You should use Tor if you require transport layer security, but that's not a solution for everyone.
Why share private things online? Nostr is for censorship resistance, why the comparison?
Believing they are using the literal definitions to base their statement here... For data to be uncensorable it needs to be known and distributed to everyone. Online privacy is about reducing, hiding, or anonymizing data so it's not known. Some privacy techniques involve self-censorship.
You can use censorship resistant platforms with privacy technologies like onion routing to make the connection between your identity and the platform private, but what you create on the platform is never private.
