We need to figure out why more artists aren't taking a look at this. Is it a branding issue, onboarding too difficult, or too technical? Etc

Maybe we need to up our meme game. Create more simple infographics like this comparing legacy platforms to #nostr @YakiHonne View quoted note →

Also, would be great to see more RSS platforms integrating with nostr login. So the artist first claims a nostr identity and can then log in with any service they like to upload their music. Clients like @primal that give a non custodial wallet with lightning address is a great first step. (Sorry for spamming this post)

Good point. I had my own and a few others' experiences in mind but that may not be a good representation.

I like being able to post my boosts. It's a great way to promote the tunes. I try to tag the artist as well so they can get notified, and so others can easily follow their npub. And this is one of the biggest opportunities that I can see... It also allows the artist to close the loop and thank or otherwise interact with the listener directly. Without that integration I don't know a simple way to thank the booster. Podcasters can just read off the boosts on air but that's not really an option for RSS music. That being said, there are good arguments against integration as well.

Smart awareness and education tactics would be great for both artists and listeners. Most are completely unaware other options available, let alone willing to give it a try.

My own head scratching at this has led me to think that most musicians or artists are maybe just happy in their fiat life style and mindset, however unsafe that is. The majority are also quite unoriginal and followers of fashion, and until they see someone else get famous or breakthrough from a V4V route, couldn’t be bothered to try it. Declaring themselves to be anti-fiat would likely ruin their chances of traditional success, their rebellion is superficial. So we tend to get the older people with more experience who have already given up on a traditional music career anyway. Maybe young musicians, despite everything, actually still want to sign a contract and have success on a plate and hard work and personal ownership is antithetical to that? I thought our best bet in growing this scene was with trying to create a sort of punk mindset again, but there isn’t much of an audience here yet either truth be told, most bitcoiners are not interested and there’s just a small group of very committed people seemingly holding the whole thing together.

I agree with everything you wrote. And I will add that the punk scene (most music scenes) started with very few people. Scenes might stay a small niche movement for years before it breaks out. But how many scenes never break out at all, and what are the deciding factors?

Maybe a topic to tackle: How in a smooth/painless way bring more music fans to the space (v4v but also NOSTR) - while not overwhelming them with all the tech rel/complicated terms and the whole waterfall of options to choose from 🙃 Best of luck, Matt 🤜⚡🤛

@inpc @𝖘𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖔𝖘𝖍𝖎 𝖙𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖒𝖎

Thank you. Artists will go where the audience is. But you need the content and ux to draw them. There is good content but people are used to having everything imaginable.

Maybe we can use it to our advantage? Like a branding thing. "The Edgy Alternative To Spotify".... kind of approach, to make it cool not being a legacy product. The badass underdog concept.

I don't think it is a chicken and egg problem: the music/arts (coONtEenT) is the first step. Artists will bring their fans to wherever that exists: if the access is easy and the incentives are good. Creatives are generally engaged in community management, whether they see it that way or not. That's why I think it's important to be careful not to oversell the space to artists and be honest about it's emergent state. because a poor experience will devalue their incentives to tell anyone about this new emancipating space.

@Joe Martin partly sets out an answer with a Nostr key but it would be interesting to know what both artists and platforms do to ensure tracks/artists are verified and not claiming other peoples work, this issue exists on Bandcamp and other platforms. Large labels can get legal on their arse but its a different situation for indies.

Maybe it shouldn't be smooth and attractive to people? Maybe it needs to be a grimey and a bit difficult?

I know bitcoin is still a pain point for a lot of artists. On the Fediverse even the mention can lead to some strong reactions. A common reaction I've had is "I'm not into crypto". Streaming on RSS on the other hand people are way more interested and open minded, I've been saying how RSS us like the MIDI of the internet and that seems to work well.

I wish I understood that too. The older and more cynical I get I wonder if most scenes were really kind of over by the time they went more mainstream and the public jumped on? Maybe the first sign of death was the suits moving in and ramping it up for mainstream exploitation? But I hope that is just my seeing the shit show some of the big suits and egos in bitcoin have happily made of things🤷‍♂️

Here's what I would do if I were in a band. Frankiepaint could very well make this a reality in the future. If I was in a band, there would be live streamed rehearsal sets biweekly at the minimum. Practice, chat, phone lines, interactive elements everything you would see on a live podcast. For live in person shows, I would bring a travelling live streaming kit and just go for it. Stream the whole show with a dedicated crew of two/three (crew would be a part of the band and live experience). The esotericness would be off the charts with a set that is interactive with boostagrams. My hope is that a typical...I'm not even gonna say the way....a standard show goer walks in, sees a cacophony of animatronics and lights dancing to donations. I hope that this average show goer only has six letters in their minds being "WTF" and "IRC". Money, like space, is fake and gay. My mindset wouldn't change. The first and only driving force would be to make something cool. No endless drive for "but muh bills" or how do we get more people in here to pay "muh bills". If you want more people (and I've felt this way for a long time and have tried it three times with success) is to - A: Book people on a podcast related to music so they have a reason to try it out. I.e. hosts invite a musician on, part of the prep is to work with them on getting music hosted. B: I would be try to guest on as many music podcasts as I could find with a stacked catalog of live produced concerts. A local watering hole has infinitely more charm than a dave and busters. If the door is open and the light is on, they'll find their way in. Someone echoed this in another part of the thread, but I concur that a lot of people won't have any clue what you can do until they're given permission to be excited (aka celebrity culture says "it's cool!" #demu

I reached out to the guy at faircamp about adding podcasting 2.0 stuff and sent him some music related stuff and he went off when he saw Bitcoin being mentioned. Actually I think you're the one that first mentioned faircamp to me.

Nostr web of trust may form part of the solution, and if it works it might provide better protections for indie artists than the legacy platforms.

Yeah I had that in mind when posting, its a real shame because they're also doing some really good work. I've also had negative responses from friends when offering to release their work on the format (or at least make them aware). The sad truth is politics plays a big part in peoples perceptions, at least in my experience.

Agreed. Ive said this before but the superpower I thought blockchain technology could provide is if the master recordings of a release could be cryptographically signed and then each use, be that broadcast/streaming etc. could be on an open ledger. Its never really materialised. Maybe that could be discussed? Imaginevthat. You sign the master then you KNOW every time its played on radio etc and accounting would be accurate and verifiable.

Great ideas. I'm sure I've heard you say these before. And they should work anywhere.

That's beyond me but I'll take note.

I'm personally wanting to reach out to artists that I come across on the standard platforms (Spotify/YT, Bandcamp) whose music I find quite funky & cool, yet they have smaller followings and from the research I've done, they're independent artist's. What holds me back is fashioning an appropriate reach out email. Explaining the 4v4 space (that's isn't complicated), it's an alternate revenue stream. I can easily explain Bitcoin & where they can host their music (Fountain/Music Side Project, Wavlake); I don't pick sides with where to host, it's up to them. Bitcoin (that's the value mechanism used) & they can do whatever they'd like with their revenue earned (hold it or convert it cash). What holds me back is the NOSTR element, I think it's unnecessary at the moment, personally and adds another layer of complexity to creatives. They want to make music, have people hear & enjoy it and garner more exposure. IMO, this needs to be a simplified and easier process, and that is how I would approach it. I wouldn't bombard them with too much tech, that can come later & if they're interested. TL;DR ⏭️ KIS My 2 sats.

I think WOT could be handy for discover and seeing what others are listening to. I don't think we have enough activity for that to be a thing yet.

if only everyone agreed on the best ledger! @Fanfares are the first i see approaching this the right way: incentivize honesty. As a creator you can give promoters a commission, which means it becomes more rewarding to just bump the original artists channel than the pirate channel. But proof of origin or whatever..... even with cryptography and automation: as long as we can output and input media, shit's going to be ripped and copied and shared. Embrace it!

What are you doing Friday evening? 😁 I get a lot of messages via Bandcamp and YT offering opportunities etc. I just assume they are all scams!

Aesthetics are also important, much of Nostr/Bitcoin shares the same chypherpunk type imagery, techno techno techno but when I look at musicians work, unless they're making certain styles, the aesthetic is very different. Truth is AI imagery doesn't translate particularly well for a music audience IMO. If there were more imagery that was evocative of the music, that would help. Its funny, I saw an AI image for a V4V show featuring Right Said Fred and the AI looked like it had used Bris instead 😂 I didn't say anything at the time but I thought it was a really had look, a bit of back and forth with the artist could go a long way.

The "spammy" part is another issue I've thought much on. Figured some thing's out & the only way to know the results is to do the simplified reach out. So....TBD Friday? Is there something going on? 🤷‍♀️ I'll make a note to listen in 😎

Sounds a bit like Multilevel Marketing haha I'll have to check it out thanks. I wonder how many indie artists release on Spotify, etc for the purpose of generating income? Or do they do it because that's where the people are and what is expected of them, and it's not a financial decision at all?

@Matt Finlay @𝕳𝖊𝖓𝖗𝖎𝐤 𝕱𝖑𝐲𝖒𝖆𝖓 @𝖘𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖔𝖘𝖍𝖎 𝖙𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖒𝖎 Agree with most of the things, yet would like to clarify a bit my approach/suggest topic. SORRY ;) for a super long note... 1/. I didn't mean to say 'how to make it brainless + to attract anyone/everyone, whatsoever...' But yeah, honestly, we need the fresh audience to join the movement as well, otherwise we're going to end up in an echo chamber with maybe just a few 'hardcore' (rebellious caretakers) still hanging out here (no way to go this way long-term). 2/. I do believe in the wisdom of this saying "Nature does not hurry, yet everything is accomplished" but at the same time I do like taking action where possible. And looking at how many non-active creators are here (nostr, fountain, forgotten option with RSS, etc) hurts. But too, motivates. Many (too many) talents that gave up, but I know we can change that. And sure I am not thinking about the artists who do expect easy wins/low-hanging fruits only. NO to 100% effortless approach — same when it comes to music fans. But there is a thin line (a risky one) between things being a bit demanding (involving your brain/thinking/learning, commitment, etc.) and becoming overly complicated, discouraging, scary, etc. Sure, there will always be people who don't mind, persistent ones, but again it's all about the balance, like in the world/universe. And if we do not wanna end up in the same tiny circle years from now, we need to plan, discuss, test, etc. (*** not saying it is not happening btw. just explaining why I did suggested the spefic topic before). 3/. Sorry, but I don't fully see 'artists bringing in their fans' — in some 'lucky' cases it may be just a tiny % but what we need is the whole ecosystem (we kinda have it already but with some serious gaps to be filled that will also let creators gain new fans and help close the circle). We do have many cases where it does not happen because of XYZ reasons, and targeting this side is another topic in itself (different, more narrow than the main suggested thread but an important one too). The whole thing is not a zero-one game. Also, I do have some specific ideas on how to attract more people here (one of the reasons I started this project), but I wanna hear more stories, cases, etc. to learn and to help us all experiment. 4/. To 'The Edgy Alternative to Spotify' — yeah, it's actually nice, and it'll probably attract the people who are the best target group for now. But again, 'edgy' can become razor-sharp and scary. That's why I want to hear as many options/ideas as possible on how to bring more people in, iand by maybe too strong word as 'painless' I meant smoother way than some of us might have been able to offer them so far. Imagine you like reading books. It's not the most important thing in your life, but you do enjoy a few now and then. Just recently you stopped reading because quality content is very expensive, and the rest (affordable / available everywhere) is just some lame AI copy-cat slop. You give up in a way. Then a person comes to tell you that there is a new space with quality reads — developed with some downsides too since it's still a new realm, but it will let you enjoy many good books. You get excited (hope is back), but then that person hands you the entire manual on how to install XXX number of tools, take XXX number of steps, and meanhwile uses words you've never heard before and don't really understand — all just to explain how to put your hands on a single book. Even if you are a fighter and somehow decide to give it a try, soon you see even more complicated terms and options (some working some not), and even face some internal fight on what is really the right 'freedom way of reading books' vs 'just books that pretend to be read as free,' etc. What to do, how to do, whta not to do, etc. .... Will you continue? In most cases, no. You have your life to handle first, and reading is just a tiny part of it, as a hobby — not the war you wanna die on.

Oh, I may have my wires crossed about that? Yeah, I'd find an email or other direct contact instead of going via the platforms wherever possible. That would seem less spammy for me. @Joe Martin mentioned similar the other day, you could ask if you can play their song on your music podcast - don't even mention valueverse or anything. If they are interested you can go from there.

"Convenience" is what eventually broke the legacy world. A small barrier to entry isn't necessarily a bad thing. But of course, it’s not the end goal either. I’d say the listener experience is the most important thing to make smooth and enjoyable. The edgy branding becomes the reward, making listeners feel special for seeking music outside the mainstream and becoming part of something sincere and meaningful. And that’s ultimately what attracts the mainstream too. You can see the same pattern in major cities. Creatives, artists, musicians, etc., tend to gather in certain areas, usually because that’s where they can still afford to live and hang out. Over time, they bring authenticity and make those places special. Then everyone else wants to be there too. It becomes the hip place to be, prices go up, the creatives get pushed out, and the cycle repeats. But this time, we’d never have to leave. Unless something goes terribly wrong 🎸

Your wires aren't crossed. I know there's a V4V Roundtable set up 🥸 I'll think on your points regarding emailing. I've got a few things together, just gotta do the reach out in a way that is comprehensive, yet, direct and to the point.

For me it is like a different language was being spoken coming in totally green to nostr, RSS and Bitcoin. But I'm stubborn 😁

Aye 💜💜💜 and I truly RESPECT YOU for who you are 🤜⚡🤛 yet, I akso guess/hope you know what I've mean in my super long response

I think I do. You make some good points.

Getting more listeners is a major step as everyone mentioned. Part of it I think, is having easy touch pionts into the space without actually having to join the space, if that makes sense. Take Wavlake or amplifiedtunes.online. You can send simple urls or webpages for people to check out and see and listen to things going on in the space without actually needing to join nostr or download another app. I think as soon as you ask people to download an app to access a realm they know nothing about, you have already lost half the people. Then telling them about cryptographic key pairs and lightning wallets looses the other half. ALSO…we need to bring discussion of V4V music onto legacy platforms. Having people who have already joined talk about it on nostr doesn’t reach anyone. If we had a small but passionate team of people start to create V4V Facebook groups, and whatever the equivalent is on other platforms, they could slowly build a following on these platforms, make people aware and interested enough that maybe after several touch points or having it simmer in the back of their brain for a few months, decide to join. That’s more the listener side. On the artist side, I think something needs to be done to make it more financially incentivized. Tell musicians to join and hope that a small number of people zap them from the goodness of their hearts is a tough selling feature. Maybe it’s sacrilege to say this around here, but what if the Spotify model would be good but just by cutting out Spotify as the middle man. What if a protocol could be developed that would allow artists to create a sort of subscription model that would open up their full catalogue to people who subscribe and pay say 1000 sats a month? Kinda like auto boosts and subscriptions joined together but subscribing to the specific artist and not a whole platform. Artist could have like a couple sample songs available for free to anyone, and people that want to check out more can subscribe to the artist and unlock their whole catalogue. And of course send zaps like always if they want to. I know lots of people think completely open and free is best because it goes with the open source protocol ethos, but if most people can freeload without having to give up anything, they will. So some sort of middle ground between free and open and a “subscription or paywall” may offer the best of both worlds for artists and listeners alike?

Don't know if any of these points have been made (Great thread by Matt btw.) 1. Tell the podcasters to use the v4v music in their shows. 2. We have to get the artists to tell their fans to come and support them over here in the valueverse. 3. We have to do more v4v live shows.

I have to say, some of the biggest boosts I have got were from our songs being included in bitcoin podcasts or podcasts that aren’t V4V music related, but add a song at the end of their episode. Bitcoin podcasts seem to have fairly large audiences and obviously listeners have some sats to throw around.

We need a v4v one of these versus Spotify. What are the 3 equivalent points?

I know most people think daniel ek and a marketing team brought the music fans to spotify. But i assure you the musicians are to credit for the adoption: unless the business model is private data then the raw material is the music. But sure, we should push forward! So much reform is needed! sorry for short note. Keep the passion burning!💜

On point 3 yes, totally, more V4V shows are needed for sure. With all your experience of putting them on so far, do you find they are working better being attached to bitcoin conferences or as a standalone thing? Is it better for them to have their own identity and be live-streamed etc away from a conference? Is there a diminishing return in getting the same artists to repeat largely the same set at the same venue to largely the same audience, just like when a small band is trying to break through but needs a bigger audience? Should we try to work together to create a set of venues with V4V gigs that artists could move round in a sort of self organised tour? Or should people work together and book more flagship music venues and get artists to travel and hope the venue name excites a bigger livestream audience?

The choice of spotify, for "most artists", i reckon is barely even a question. That's the reality we're dealing with. But it's fine. At the end of the day: there is no "fair music-market" unless there is a "fair market". 😅 We should move and push the state of the art at all levels! And we are! Look at you, @inpc, @Amplified Tunes ... and everyone chiming in to this thread: we're building it! It's happening! And there's no wrong! if we fail: we learn and try again! The underground is dead, long live the underground!

I think so too! Sorry i can't elaborate more right now, but we'll have more chances to ball ideas and angles for sure! :lovemega:

I think the elephant in the room is that it's still too much effort for a non technical person to acquire bitcoin just to zap a few sats to their favorite artists. So we either have to wait for bitcoin to be baked in to all the current payment rails (might take decades) or a platform needs to bridge the gap with the fiat world making it super easy to zap from an applepay-like solution. Just my two sats

You definitely have a point about how difficult it is for newcomers to acquire BTC. It’s a real challenge that needs solving.

That's a good point. There may be some apps people use that have the ability to buy and send bitcoin. Like maybe Venmo or cashapp. Or investing apps like Wealthsimple. If someone has heard of or has an account with an app like that already that would lower the barrier to entry

Lots of good info here... View quoted note →

I wonder if there is a way for certain nostr clients to integrate a way to buy bitcoin. Maybe from a P2P exchange that doesn't require KYC?

This is a great summary of the hurdles that exist here, and I appreciate it. You also described what I've been building for the past 2 years, so let me chime in. My philosophy is that we just need to get creators making more money on nostr than anywhere else, and we have the freedom to make it happen. We made @Fanfares so that artists can publish paywalled music on nostr, but link to it via any normal social channel. Put your free stuff on your YouTube/Bandcamp/etc can funnel people toward your paid stuff (with free previews). Payments are done via lightning but CashApp can natively handle lightning payments even if the payer doesn't own bitcoin, eliminating the friction of onboarding them. We're always working on making it more convenient for people to buy and for creators to sell. It's all about putting more tools into creators' hands, and this is a paywall you can start using without running a lightning node. Regarding paywalls, artists are already pricing their work whether they realize it or not: offering it for free is pricing it at zero. And as many artists have found out, pricing your goods at zero doesn't always yield a great return. A middle ground (free samples + paid catalogue + zaps on top) could give artists a real shot at making this their living. Pricing things at zero is how we get Spotify feudalism. I think artists deserve better. Cheers 🫡 shout out to @𝖘𝖊𝖙𝖙𝖔𝖘𝖍𝖎 𝖙𝖔𝖓𝖆𝖒𝖎 for directing me to this thread. If you'd like early access to publish on Fanfares just let me know.

ERHM ACTUALLY it's only ever 1 level of marketing. The referrer gets 100% of the commission. Just to be clear. Are we clear?

let me know if you want early access Matt 😊

Great post.

Interesting. I guess this is not v4v but can co-exist with it.

1/ Which podcast audience is it best to target - Bitcoin or normie? If they are on yt, fb, etc there's always risk of getting a strike or demonetised for playing music. But the platforms is where most people are. 2 and 3 yes! And please keep up your great work! 🙌

It was before my time, but it sounds like boostagram ball played a major role in things and the "Alby Apocalypse" had a major effect in the opposite. I reckon solutions around this will be a big part of the discussion.

To play devils advocate - What do RSS and Nostr give you as an artist that you can't get anywhere else? Why is it worth investing your limited amount of time here rather than existing platforms with a wider audience reach? What does this give listeners that they can't get on the big platforms? Why is it worth using this over SoundCloud or Spotify? For me, I like directly supporting artists and finding good music that I can't find or that gets buried by overproduced music on the big platforms. I like the community of artists we have and the ability to have a direct connection with them with nobody in between. I also like using Bitcoin as money as it was originally intended to be. I also think this is still very technical and nerdy and most people aren't going to get it. You open up Primal and all of the top notes are about Bitcoin and Nostr and none of them are about music. How does a new user find music here? Most Nostr apps still emulate the Twitter firehose model when maybe a reddit-style community system would be better?

All of them. Yt not gonna give them bitcoin so no incentive there.

Great input, Joe. And good thinking by YakiHonne. It’s probably much easier to promote a specific app (e.g. Fountain, Stablecraft, etc.) than the broader concept (i.e. v4v), especially when onboarding new people. But I’m not sure which app that would be. There are several pretty good options, but people coming from the legacy world expect Spotify-level quality and functionality. And honestly, I don’t think we’re quite there yet. Or maybe we are, and I’ve just missed it. Right now, it seems like people find this space when they’re ready for it. Onboarding new people means trying to convince those who haven’t yet arrived at those conclusions on their own. The people who discover this space organically are usually motivated enough to find the imperfections charming. Others are harder to convince. If they get a bad first impression, it’s much harder to get a second chance later, even after things have improved.

It's vb4v and it's just another tool for creators to pick up if they want!

People see the value in the platform more than the actual art. The marketing must be doing something! I'll throw out a silly idea... recreate Spotify for the v4v artists. Monthly subscription fee (fiat) and sats go to each track listened to until the balance expires (app continues to work for the month, maybe a message to say they can top up their balance). Would need to be in a jurisdiction that allows it. And maybe the funds would need to be held for a couple months to avoid chargebacks but that's how it currently works anyway. It might be a stepping stone into v4v for listeners as well as attract artists if there are results?

Your “devil’s advocate” approach is the correct one. We need solid arguments that make this space special. It will resonate with those who agree. I never found Bitcoin interesting until I realized that the fiat world is finished. Yes, Monero might be a better alternative, but since BTC is more widespread, and now with Lightning, it makes a lot of sense that this is the focus for now. Building a new space for music on the foundation of the economy of the future feels much more intriguing than continuing to focus all energy on something that is bound to fail. Even if Spotify survives for more than a couple of years, it will most likely become a CBDC platform. Removing middlemen is just as important as building on sound money. For too long, the hard labor of creative people has been extracted by those who contributed very little, but injected themselves into positions of power that allowed them to control the entire industry, mainly to serve themselves and their shareholders. With them out of the picture, we have a chance to see artists thrive and earn a decent living from doing what they’re meant to do, without needing a side hustle just to pay the bills. The closest we currently get to a social app with music in focus is Nostria, which is tightly integrated with native Nostr music while also including a whole lot more. No support for RSS Podcasting 2.0 yet, though. It also has a very simple community feature that most people seem to overlook. But you’re right. It would be nice to see something more like Reddit or old-school web forums integrated into an app. Discussions like this are much better suited to that kind of environment than as comments under a Nostr post.

Ask everyone what V4V means to them and examples of value they've given or received over the years. There's probably some awesome meetup stories and collabs they can share. And if everyone just talks monetary value, set 'em straight! 😋 You could also ask who has their own website and if they host their music/podcast there, because fans searching for them specifically are going to go directly to their site first in the truly decentralized web people are craving. Then you could mention adding that feed URL to the Podcast Index will make 'em show up in even more places for alternative discovery.

Thanks haha!

I would love to check this out! Open to being published anywhere to optimize visibility and reach! Also love being some of the first to try new ideas!

Maybe this is an idea @Joe Martin for solving the fiat Bitcoin issue. I actually have no idea how to exchange Fiat for Bitcoin without having my bank account frozen - it happens here and I am very reliant on access unfortunately.

Should have tagged @Sir HeyCitizen last night! He's also building a very cool RSS Music infrastructure project behind the scenes. I guess I see you as more of an "expert" than just a musician is why.

how does V4V music as a whole have more reach to people who are looking for good music already but mainly on mainstream platforms? awareness is key ✨ 🌿

There were some his ideas about using memes/infographics in here somewhere lol

Is the music from v4v music accessible on other nostr clients? What's the best client for streaming music?

"What's the best client for streaming music?" Very good question.

Ditto also does nostr-native music. And I think Amethyst now does it as well as RSS music. I can can't see it though so it maybe it's only on beta release. There's a few music-focused nostr apps. I like Sunami.app

Just because I'm curious, are you mainly on phone or PC? (I never, or very rarely use phone)

I know Henrik loves Nostria. It’s super good. Extremely versatile and seems to have everything before other clients

Phone for me

But no RSS music.

When replying in conversations I like the phone because you can just quickly get your response out. If I make a post I try to do it from pc to properly write it out and it’s easier to add links and photos etc. unless the photo is already on my phone.

Oh now that you mention it. I guess you are right. I assume it’s not hard to add that. More music focused client have both nostr and rss music. Like Sunami and zaptrax

I have a feeling most apps work better on phone. For example, I really want to love Fountain. But on PC it's really annoying to stream a sequence of songs. Before switching to the next, it (often) starts playing a second of the beginning of the current song before switching. Totally ruins the experience. Same on phone if used through a browser. I just now tried the Fountain app for the first time, and this actually seems to work (but it took me half a year to realize since I never use phone 😅, or am interested in doing so). However, the app doesn't seem to show the albums, EPs, etc, just the tracks in a long list (unless I miss something), which is really a shame. I am fully aware that most people live their lives with a phone in their hand. But I'm sure I'm not the only one using PC (Windows and Linux). I would promote Fountain even harder if they had a smooth playback.

Sunami takes forever to load for me. I can't use it without getting gray hairs in the process. But then again, I'm on PC and maybe it's different for phone people (it often is).

In your experience, do you think Nostr in general works equally well on PC and phone? My impression is that the PC/browser experience is somewhat neglected.

PS. I'm definitely not a phone guy 🎸

It's a bit clunky everywhere to be honest lol

No you are right. Sometimes it takes a bit to load. On phone and pc

Haha.... 😅... true story. That might be worth bringing up in the panel discussion. It's difficult to convince newcomers with clunkiness. Maybe we should hurry slowly with the onboarding.

I have used both web based clients and apps on pc. For web based clients mainly satellite.earth and primal. Nostria app on pc is great. I find if I have the opportunity I like pc for browsing nostr. Is easier and faster. I also have a really old phone and sometimes I think the new updates for clients slow it down for my old phone

Last time I tried it took about a minute to load the start page. Now I tried again and it’s dramatically improved. Nice to see. It’s great how everyone keeps improving what’s within our reach 🎸

Lightweight will soon be more valuable than yet another feature. I’d rather see a great app get faster than pile on features that few ever use.

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Great! You it may still be hit and miss but its decent

I'll bite! Let's say i have recreated spotify for the v4v artist. What do i do next? Get people to subscribe on it, or find music for the subscribers to listen to? Now of course, many musicians have less say about all this than their label. I believe this is part of the root cause: the contemporary licensing models are simply in favor of major labels.

💯

In my mind the listener simply pays their monthly subscription in fiat and the app/platform pays the artists per stream using their RSS value block, like a fairer version of Spotify. It's just to eliminate that hurdle of "how to I get these sats things" for onloading. A larger listener base (and getting them paid more per stream) should help lure the artists. Just ideas.

I think what you are describing is essentially podcast2. But PC2 is the one from the better world, where access is for all and support is voluntary! Either way, you're participating in building that library on PC2! :lovemega: "be the change you want to see" and all that jazz :aliendance:

This?

DeepWiki

yajuhua/podcast2 | DeepWiki

This document provides a high-level introduction to the podcast2 system, explaining its purpose, architecture, and key capabilities. For detailed i...

Maybe..? haha! This link will be more useful

Podcasting 2.0 - Making podcasts better for everyone!

Learn about the podcast innovations and features of Podcasting 2.0 for audiences, podcasters, and developers; and how to upgrade your podcast for m...

It's the backbone of this: https://v4vmusic.com/?publisher=cmkjv599g12i9od0iefmkf43j

Of yes, of course. It would be similar to v4vmusic.com for people without sats but want to support artists.

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread. Onboarding of more artists and consumers is the main goal of course. I see several challenges here but the main problem is the lack of a basic economic knowledge. That is the key to understand why current models of music distribution and consuming don't work in order to be open for a total different approach with the v4v model. This is still a long way to go, I guess. The technical hurdles aren't that much of a problem. I see a lot of artists being unhappy with Spotify etc. but they are sticking to the idea of ​​copyright. In the end they just search for a better deal with another Spotify-like company. So, focus shouldn't be the technical side of v4v. We definitely need much more marketing based on success stories to spread as a door opener.

Interesting viewpoint! I'm lacking in basic economic knowledge myself.

When they're attached to conferences we certainly get more donations from the room. We just need more of everything. Normal shows, conference parties and we are working on doing some sessions just to test all the latest tools. There is no right way or wrong way. You just have to do something. This community is great though. Everyone wants to see us succeed, so the support is humbling (from all over the globe)