Unpopular opinion:
The best savings tool the world has ever seen shouldn't be transacted in daily (as of today).
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Replies (105)
It's always been the best at both savings and spending. Only thing that matters is if you save more than you spend while you're capable of income so you have savings to spend when you're incapable of bringing as much income as you need to live.
Just abstract what you're spending. The form doesn't matter. Spending is spending, no matter what money you're using. You're already there. You spend on credit so you can budget and save more money than you spend. If you only hold enough fiat to give to merchants that demand it, then you will slowly start to spend Bitcoin as you replace those merchants with ones who demand Bitcoin.
right
an asset with a hardcap is obviously not going to be a MoE. you cant fight the incentives.
just use monero.
I agree with this, I'm focused on making my life full of the relationships that allow me to spend Bitcoin for the majority of my purchases. Peer to peer digital cash requires building peer relationships.
Except I use the asset as a MoE today 🤣
My weed purchased with bitcoin was waiting at my front door when I got home from my cruise this morning. Thank you @CraftCanna
I have @Oshi hodl butter and chocolate stocked in my fridge which was purchased with bitcoin
Bitcoin is money and it will be used differently depending on people’s situation in life. I don’t understand why it has to be binary
The obsession from you monero bros on here to have everyone use monero is fucking retarded and getting really fucking annoying.
That's what lightning is for. Instead of swapping to xmr (many on chain tx over time) just open a lightning channel.
Huh, like I haven't heard that for the last 7 years
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Obviously not around for Bitcoin Twitter in the late teens
deal with it
I have spent sats with rev before :)
Why is that obvious to you? Because it's not to me. You still think in fiat terms.
Maybe it's not that you don't have enough Bitcoin. Maybe it's that you still have too much fiat.
Like every economist on record has talked about the price of money
think about what happens when the demand keeps increase, but the supply only decreases.
this isnt hard.
fiat has nothing to do with it.
(but hey, why deviate from the defined maxi script just because it's totally unrelated...)
Was kind of around but was more so in crypto twitter vs bitcoin twitter…wasted lots of sats in the crypto casino during the late teens. Listened to piece of shit scammers trying to sell me the next bitcoin.
Very similar to what you and the other monero bros are trying to do on here
So you only derive your opinion from an appeal to authority? Whatever the economic experts say. Demand for money is constant, not always increasing. Unless you mean by population growth than sure. The demand is only higher now because it is new and hasn't reached 8 billion people yet. Supply is also not deflationary. It's constant. Technology is deflationary. Prices for things always fall to marginal cost of production. Marginal cost of production always goes to zero. What's needed for a stable economy is a money with no supply change.
damn you really just do the Maxi Greatest Hits dont you?
monetary theory is important and referencing it isnt an "appeal to authority"
Demand for money is NOT constant. It increases as economic activity increases.
So if your thesis is that we're going to get growth-supplied deflation, the demand for money is increasing.
People dont just want spending cash, they want credit. Banks make money by borrowing short and lending long. If theres demand for Bitcoin-denominated credit, someone will create it.
Just like under gold in the late-19th. Claims on Bitcoin will grow to increase *beyond the number of real Bitcoins* Thats where the incentives are.
This will happen for several reasons (and probably happens anyway) but the absolute hard cap is the nail in the coffin that makes a practically necessary.
The massive growth in custodial LN infrastructure makes it increasing obvious.
You'd have to be a rabid maxi to not see it.
You don't need zero monetary supply change for a stable economy, you just need monetary policy that is *fixed and known by the economic participants*.
🦗 from @Hanshan while he continues spewing his bullshit and bashing maxis with replies to @OceanSlim
Feel like monero and guys like @Hanshan and @Jordan The Nostr Miner are state attacks against bitcoin. No different from shitcoiners that shill ethereum or zcash or litecoin or whatever shitcoin is out there
We have concrete examples of bitcoin being used as money but they continue to call it a failure and tell us to buy monero instead. It’s all so tiresome
I don't think lightning is a good scaling solution.
I’ve used most of them, and my transactions are always included in the block they say they’re going to be included in.
Bitcoin is the only one where you can pay high Sat/vB, and be next in line to be included in the block, and then not be included until 3 to 5+ Blocks later.
What’s supposed to be a 10 minute transaction ends up becoming an hour or so.
Every single time I need to remind you what the fucking conversation is.
I've told you before
You just never remember
I'm talking about social trends and the future of large scale systems.
I also use Bitcoin as money dumbass.
Bitcoin is secure enough to accept a 0-conf transaction as a merchant. I would be more than happy to take 0-conf on chain Bitcoin. If it's in the mempool I'm 99.9999% certain I will receive the payment. I'm 20x less certain with any other chain.
Not really
Because the way people assess threats is as ACTUAL REAL THREATS
Not theoretical possibility of threat in the abstract
And the actual real probability of somebody doing a hash attack that affects your particular transaction is essentially zero on either chain.
Except for last year when monero got reorgd right...
https://news.bitcoin.com/moneros-chain-hits-reverse-18-blocks-replaced-in-deep-reorg/
cope
They will make up some bullshit excuse why this does not matter 🤣
Appreciate your willingness to debate these guys 🫂
Someone has to do it...
Agreed and I try but I am getting tired and frustrated
I don't get frustrated but I do get tired. Then I just stop talking. I comment so others reading can draw their own conclusions.
Thats kinda exactly what I mean. Those transactions were reverted to the mempool, there was no double spend, nobody lost money.
It was a headache for a few days, the attack failed and everyone moved on.
Thats the only reason to have these conversations
Both of you guys get rocked and give up pretty often
And you think that’s just ok?
We should be comfortable storing our net worth in something that can be attacked so trivially?
You think that if the people actually calling the shots in the world cared about monero they would not be able to attack it and render it completely useless?
I did not mean to like your retarded post
ok
This is a retarded point. Bitcoin supports RBF and Monero doesn't. It's way way way easier to steal from a merchant with 0-conf transactions on Bitcoin than it is on Monero, it's literally a supported feature.
No.
I did not say that anywhere.
Try having a conversation about WHAT WAS SAID
rather than trying to argue what YOU THINK I MEAN
Too late retard 😂 now it's there forever
I mean it wasn’t even that bad… 18 blocks is only 36 min… it was only like an hour or two long issue…?
He raised a valid point about monero being attacked and you just wrote it off like it was no big deal…
Sounds like you're 20x more retarded for not actually understanding how Bitcoin works 😂
Its an attack and its a concern.
Of course.
But basically everybody shrugged and kept using monero anyway.
It's not like everybody who accepts Monero started requiring 15 confirmations. Although some custodial exchanges were doing that while the attack was happening.
I pay for shit 0conf with monero several times a week.
So yes, the attack actually demonstrates what I'm saying about people's threat assessment.
Then don't accept transactions with RBF enabled at 0 conf... Pretty simple solution bud... You can see the chain
If you want to look in my past notes, you'll see plenty about monero's hash rate being too low.
But the reorg attack last year did NOT make everybody stop using Monero, the price hardly blinked, everybody shrugged their shoulders and moved on.
So that's evidence FOR what I was saying about people's threat assessment.
Literally NOBODY did like slim is saying, scream "Monero is 20 times more likely to get attacked!!" and run away.
Yea I just don't understand how it works... that's why I get paid to develop on Bitcoin. Makes sense.
I’m pretty sure I was unaware of what was going on and was actively swapping at the time and didn’t even notice lol
That's good! As a merchant, make sure you have deep technical knowledge of Bitcoin mempool policies and configuration settings before you accept it!
Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but a massive public mining corporation has for years now offered a private transaction submission service: 
I'm quite confident it would be easier to fuck you with 0-conf transactions on Bitcoin than on Monero.
MARA
Marathon Digital Holdings Launches Slipstream
New Direct Transaction Submission Service Designed To Streamline Confirmations for Large or Non-Standard Bitcoin Transactions Fort Lauderdale,…...
Monero is easier to fuck with confined transactions than Bitcoin. Much less unconfirmed... That's just facts bruh. Cope some more.
> Monero is easier to fucj with confirmed transactions than Bitcoin.
I didn't argue this point.
> Much less unconfirmed
I argued this point because it's retarded and wrong, and indicative you don't really understand Bitcoin as well as you think you do.
It's wrong if you want to assume you can't do a transaction without rbf so it fits your narrative, sure.
It's retarded to assume that.
You really shouldn't be talking shit as if full-RBF policy wasn't the default now.
Accepting RBF has been a really bad idea *on Bitcoin* since v26.
So yeah
Its easier to f with Bitcoin txs in the mempool and that's just facts.
I merchant. I see mempool. I see rbf I wait for conf, I don't I accept 0 conf.
Pretty easy pal. All automated.
It doesn't matter what the flag says.
The flag isnt binding and if the miner is running full RBF (and all of them are now) the sender can still bump the transaction.
You are leaving out vocabulary to make your point. It's easier for the same person that originally spent the money to respond the money to a different output on Bitcoin if RBF is enabled. What we are arguing about is not the spender. It's an adversary being able to attack the chain and double spend or reorg that we are arguing about. You can't fuck with A tx in bitcoin if RBF is not enabled or if it is and you're not the private key holder. The fact is Bitcoin is Far more secure than Monero.
You want to desperately argue like it's not.
I know the flag isn't binding. I'm saying as a merchant that's enough for me.
Get the conversations straight.
This thread right here is about RBF
and mempool policy. Where Bitcoin is more unreliable due to RBF.
This here is NOT talk about an adversary being able to attack and reorg the chain.
Which is obviously easier on a Monero than Bitcoin and nobody said otherwise.
Lmao I didn't even realize that. This guy is a retard.
The number of facts you're getting wrong in this thread about Bitcoin are wild. The fact that you get paid to develop on Bitcoin isn't the win you think it is 😂
Now you're stuck either because you're unable to admit you're wrong, or because you're actually not able to understand why you're wrong.
Neither reflects well on you.
I don't think I've said anything incorrect...
Nodes default to full RBF these days. Miners run the latest node software.
It doesn't matter what you as the merchant run. If the miners run full RBF (the default), the transaction still in your pool is not as likely to get mined as the transaction that replaced it that's in the miner pools.
This is a new point @Hanshan raised that I had forgotten that I didn't raise. My points were valid anyway. Even if it wasn't the case, accepting 0-conf on Bitcoin is categorically worse in every way than on Monero today.
That's the thing you're wrong about.
RBF has always been tricky
@semisol had to remind me how it worked the other day
I've been in a number of discussions like this where Bitcoiners get facts wrong. They usually have a very hard time admitting it. Let's see how this one shakes out. I don't expect any admission based on the way the conversation has gone, I'll be pleasantly surprised if he admits it. Which is funny since this is a pretty obvious black and white technical point he's wrong on.
It doesn't matter.
Like he said earlier, the lurkers can read and decide for themselves.
(It's better for ourselves personally if we're able to admit when we're wrong. But nobody can make anybody else do that of course)
I agree.
I do prefer Bitcoiners to be honorable than not though. It's better for there to be stronger principled people involved. If nothing else, the discourse would improve. I won't feel compelled to call them retards.
I think it's cool you buy stuff like that with Bitcoin.
But why would you not want those guys to *also* take Monero? Practically everyone benefits from that, except Saifedean-style Bitcoin maxis
Rules have no shoulders. The rule that enter only the little head is the same that enter totally destroyer dick. Think about censorship: Today only the lie, tomorrow everything the destroyer dick wants.
I believe in free markets so really do not care if they accept monero and would be absolutely fine if they do so. Pretty sure oshi does and I have no issues with him doing so.
My issue is the monero retards constantly bashing bitcoin and bitcoiners with their false narratives. I have said it multiple times that I support monero and it should be complementary to bitcoin. Meanwhile the monero bros like to insult me and claim I am a pedophile or a banker because I do not want to use their privacy coin
That's all fine. I see why that stuff annoys you.
> The obsession from you monero bros on here to have everyone use monero is fucking retarded and getting really fucking annoying.
I was responding to this
The more I read your posts the more I understand you're part of the problem... Of course you went with LukeCoin
I have a credit card that pays me points.
My credit card gives me points I don't spend money I don't have.
Sometimes I even go 0% apr and don't pay it off till the end.
Giving me points and arbitrage on that fiat that I can use to buy sats or put it in Tbills for guaranteed arbitrage.
Are you replying to me or someone I have muted? I think the bip110 folks are delusional retards
Gresham's law completely lost on most folks.
Thier's Law exists for a lot of people, but not in the West.
Go on...
good is probably not the optimal word. Lightning is fine. But it has major problems as a solution for regular people sending bitcoin fast and cheap without a custodian. A trickle up effect of liquidity. Lighting can be glue in the infra and it's good for that. But it is not a cheap payment rail for a pleb unless you give up your sovereignty.
Next thing you know you need mints that take custody and issue shitcoins backed by Bitcoin
Almost like the infrastructure for doing fractional reserve banking on Bitcoin has already been developed.... 😕
All this stuff is opt in. Has nothing to do with L1.
Federal reserve does not have an opt in shitcoin printer, you are automatically fractional for participating. Two very different systems.
Technically the USD system is "opt-in" also.
defaults matter.
And if everyone is using fractional reserve L2s and the amount of sovereign usage on L1 is economically insignificant,
Bitcoins base layer properties are irrelevant.
Fiat is not opt in in any given country. It says it right on the bill. You must accept it for debts. That's what fiat literally means. Money by decree.
You have a bad habit of thinking these abstract boundaries are really what people deal with and what they use to make decisions.
We all know nothing prevents me from accepting other currency and getting off fiat. Merchants aren't accepting fiat because they're afraid of legal action if they refuse, they're accepting it because that's the default and they can use it to pay their expenses.
The state has a stranglehold and prevents any exit.
So the fact that it's legally required is mostly irrelevant to real people on the ground , they're just using it because that's what everybody's using.
So while what you say is certainly true, it isn't really a relevant point.
point is, if the default payment system is instead a fractional reserve l2, that's what people will be using and L1 protocol choices are irrelevant.
Btw, I made the same point yesterday, using the gold standard at the end of the 19th century as an example. still waiting for your reaction to that one.
Try to pay your taxes with anything other than fiat. Lemme know what they say. Then lemme know how optional they are when you ask if you really have to pay them.
Gold has limitations of size and space. Digital money can not fail the same way gold did.
Ok bro
I understand you'd rather talk about that and ignore the actual point being made 👍
The fact you have to pay your taxes in fiat doesn't change ANYTHING about what I said.
I don't opt into taxes. They're required. Fiat is not opt in. Digital currencies are opt in. That's the argument but ok.
Nice axiomatic claim you have there.
No doubt all the banks will be happy to lend out real Bitcoin.
They certainly wouldn't *dream* of developing system for fractional reserve.
And for some reason, despite all historical precedent, all Bitcoin maxis believe that this is a total impossibility and refuse to admit it's a concern.
Because "digital money can not fail the same way gold did"
There's certainly the possibility you're correct, and that would be great.
but it's really weird that you seem so confident about it, but unable to present any coherent argument for why my concerns are unfounded.
There's clear precedent, there's incentive for them to do it, there's already infrastructure that allows it to happen.
But it's just not a concern I guess. Because reason.
Because a Bitcoin is not a physical object. But keep pretending they're the same thing.
I just mean people have the liberty to change jurisdictions, evade taxes or be poor.
You can not participate if its that important to you.
But its not really an essential point. so fine, in real life and for most of people you are absolutely right.
The equation changes when you have dependents. Easily said when you don't have a family.
Absolutely agree.
Although as the genx child of hippies, IME people can still opt out on a pretty high level and have kids.
I got a bank to loan me money to buy a house at 2.125% interest. I'd be a fool to leave.
Everybody makes the decisions appropriate to their situation.
It's rare that there's any "one size fits all" solution to these complicated problems ❤️
the differences in thinking between responsible people who do things IRL and incels who argue theoretics in basements are quite stark. 👍
I'm Genx and live off-grid on 40acres i bought for cash 20yrs ago.
you're not wrong but still
GFY
Think you hit the nail on the head here.
We are trying to debate losers that live in their moms basement and have less than 10m sats in total assets
They may think different once they own a house and have to support a family
Or maybe you're just rationalizing your own lack of courage.
Would that be a bad thing? I'd take btc backed fiat or gold backed fiat any day of the week.
Capital gains taxes is big reason people don't use gold,btc or monero and doge for everyday transactions. Adds a lot of unnecessary friction. Once capital gains taxes disappear adoption will intensify.
So its inevitable. I believe btcs verifiable supply is an advantage the world has never seen before. I dream of a country adopting btc as currency and issueing fiat bills in SATs that can't be printed. But that's probly hopeium
You cannot tax every coffee like a portfolio rebalance and then ask why money stays trapped inside apps. Capital gains rules are a UX bug written by the state.
I can only speak for myself (and to a very small degree, hanshan) but I promise you youre not talking to basement dwelling incels lol. Its an easy attack, we like remaining pseudonymous, I don't share details about my real life here but if you knew what my life was like you'd be jelly. Hanshan has a citadel. I know several other monero bros living their best life. I assume most of you guys are wagies. Not atyh of course, he's also living his best life. And none of us have to chase infloooencer status and do the instahoe thing to fake it.
BTW - this false belief played out with various CEX when Monero had been still listed.
It was the main reason why Monero missed the last bull market while every memecoin reached x100. Distraction pump vs fractional (control) reserves.
Amazing for you guys. I would bet you are the rare few and most of the monero trolls on here are broke with no actual assets
You are correct. I am unfortunately a wagie stuck in fiat land. Bitcoin allows me to enjoy life but I do not have nearly enough and life is incredibly expensive. Hoping to break out of the rat race in a few years by continuing to save in what I think is the best money
You guys got into bitcoin early which gave you this freedom and now think nobody else should benefit and we should instead adopt monero…It’s really annoying
My parents are gen x and they developed their understanding of money during a time of peak hyperinflation in my country.
Still to this day my mom seems to be unable to save money or spend wisely, from my pov it feels as if she unconsciously expects things to be more expensive the more you wait for them, so saving gets replaced with installment purchases and other unhealthy financial habits.
(Theres also the issue of poor upbringing so it could be like when a formerly poor person gets sick/obese from overeating due the fear of losing it all, can’t remember the what that’s called but I think some of that idea might apply).
I understand that a fixed inflation rate is a different beast compared to hyperinflation but I still have the nagging feeling that devaluation of a currency is damaging to the understanding of money (and even other similar concepts) regardless of how small or predictable that may be, so I’m inclined to prefer dealing with whatever the downsides from a deflationary currency might be.
The same is true of bitcoiners. Most bitcoiners are broke. Most people are broke.
I got into bitcoin early *academically*, around 2012, but financially not for a few years after that. I mean you could say "early" at this point, not that early and not that much, I'm not at some post scarcity level from bitcoin. The life I have was built through more than hodl, it took work, self reflection, development of clear headedness, knowing myself. It comes from my mindset, not a stack.
I don't think nobody else *should* benefit, I think very few actually *will* benefit going forward. I think, if this separation of money and state stuff has a chance, its with monero from this point, so I'm actually trying to help people. I'm not a xmr only guy or anything, I just think its the tool for the job if we are talking about electronic cash.