Replies (181)
Did your thoughts in regards to gaming that costly signal change in the last couple of days/weeks? I remember you having some concerns, as some people have a lot of money and some don't. Still a concern or did hands-on zap experience change that?
Yeah agree if some of these clients (amethyst) would allow us to adjust our default zap amounts I would use it more often. Until then i have to drill into their profile and tip them.
I think that a repost without a comment often is only low effort content, not different from a like. It weights on reputation only for high profile accounts.
Zaps and comments are the real PoW, so have value.
🎯🎯🎯
Amanda Wolf, Executive Assistant at Nostr concurs.
PS. I'm Jack's lack of attention
Couldn’t agree more
#[0]
⚡️
I mostly agree with this, the only counter that comes to mind: those who maybe can’t afford to express their support for a piece of content.
They will get faster. Some wallets will be nostr clients and vice versa.
In the meantime, it’d be good to have a structure to be able to call the wallet up and have a return path back to nostr client.
If I'm not wrong #[4] said some days ago that nip-57 can enable this
This. Imagine what it would look like with constant reposts of the same posts. People would stop reposting because it would turn into spam.
That’s a great point: amplifying the content is definitely a value add! Thanks for repositioning that thought. 🧚🏼♀️
#[0]
Yes, replies and comments also have cost: reputational.
Too bad WoS isn't working to zap you 😄
Please do. People will be more inclined to zap if there is no like. Lightning will explode.
Zap only client... lets do it
so i’m not the only one who sees it kinda aporophobic 💀
Jack, I think this post broke WoS again. 😂
I think that a quick way to confirm and approve a *reply* without adding another "agree/ok/got it" reply can be useful to clean up the discussions.
So we could reposition the like as a generic "ok". I think that today it is often already used with this meaning.
That's an excellent point. Thanks for answering!
That was my initial line of thinking, but he’s right in saying that amplifying the content is a value add allowing someone to participate in support without even having to spend a sat. I prefer sharing over a like. Did you still feel this way after hearing this point?
They can repost or comment for free
That works today
I 🤙🏻 this note
Yes! I’m good with this. I’d rather them share or engage than like if they can’t financially participate
🤣
Your pfp isn’t showing btw
Can't people just zap themselves? I don't think it's the best approach but I agree interactions should be costly, what about Proof of Work?
It is for me, maybe a relay lag?
this is what i love about nostr - I think I have asked countless times many things directly to Jack and they got lost in the Twitterverse - now little old me has jack following me and i have been able to converse. Much signal, low noise, gotta love nostr!
#[2] yeah likes were always the cheap way of showing appreciation.
What WOULD be nice if zaps worked as the telegram bot did (lnTxBot (now retired) - meaning that you could zap a user who has no idea what lightning is and that those sats would be held for him until he registered a lightning address - hopefully the user wouldn't even see all of this, all he needs to know is "sats have been sent your way, click here to get them"
But what is displayed in your feed is not a properly of Nostr but it is from Nostr clients. I think it’ll depend and Evolve over time with some clients adding algorithms to prioritize info.. let’s see where it all lands
Yes. In fact I prefer to distinguish reposts and mentions.
Just yesterday I was discussing this on the Nostr group, the protocol situation is not clear after that nip-18 (kind 6, plain repost) has been suppressed.
It is an important matter, thank you for raising it!
I think existing social media structures have taught us that a passive nod is support, however, in real terms, it is not. Especially when we are increasingly living in a society that empowers people who output content to earn money for their effort. If you enjoyed it but don’t want to share it or affirm it with words OR shoot them a sat, you probably didn’t really enjoy it that much.
not quite. i still think people should be allowed to make decisions (to support or not to support) on their own – or maybe i still childishly believe in things like radiohead’s “in rainbows” experiment.
at least i can tell for myself, i’m fine with some likes/reposts/replies to my posts and zero sats coming from it
I totally agree.
Hi Fox it's Wolf, Amanda Wolf, Executive Assistant at Nostr 😉
I see it fine on iris
I’m fine with it also, but did feel satisfied with the counter of amplifying if one can’t afford. They giving the content more visibility you’re increasing the impact of the content you appreciate while opening it up to compensation from others in your network. That’s a money-free value add IMO
I added a setting to disable reactions, after using it for a day I find it enjoyable not seeing the likes, etc. Focuses on the quality of content and my brains ability to remember "this person is valuable to me, I value their opinion so let me read what they wrote".
… by not interacting – even they want to – because they have no sats?
so, we both agreed that having a free alternative for those who would like to but can’t afford to support is a good thing – that’s nice 💞
Yes! 🫶
I might encourage you to examine what you may be projecting onto a neutral protocol that has nothing built-in to enable people to rig the system. I think it’s very likely that people who had earned a large following on other platforms over time will have one on any new platform/protocol where the same people may go. Everyone has an equal opportunity to earn their way to an audience/reach here as opposed to other platforms where you can pay to play.
interesting!
because i think nostr as a platform can’t be called large (at least for now) - and this hierarchy (influencers and other plebs around them) is the result of exactly that. upscaling might solve it (more people -> more those clusters).
or do you want to discard this planetary-system-like scheme completely? if so, do you have any ideas, and also – isn’t that scheme actually a natural thing?
mostly agreed with your statement, but not about the “equal opportunity” bit.
some people have knowledge/experience and as a result more opportunities to reach bigger audiences – and the interesting and sad for some thing there is that there’s no *humane* way to make those opportunities equal
i would just like your reply, but according to the theme of this convo probably should say it by another reply
stay cool, wish you luck 💞
You can tip all day, but it should always be free to like. Otherwise, the responses will be like: "trust me bro, I like it, but I'm now broke." 😆
Pay-to-reply would be more effective in the sense you proposed.
You can like anything in real life for free, but also in real life a lawyer or a hooker will charge you by the hour. It's all about the work and utility.
Pay-to-like removes a feedback loop that we miss in real social interactions. You could call that feedback loop an "algorithm". Imagine seeing a comedian, but now you have to pay to laugh. 😆
You could also have to be paid to like. 🤭
He's right. Likes seem redundant now. Too many options as well.
Why should there be stakes for every interaction? There's enough of that in the offline world, that it feels appropriate that at least online simple & undecorated actions matter enough to maybe have broader consequences. One can acknowledge & appreciate without having to pass value judgements on one's reputation or wallet 👀
And there are certainly occassions where it's practically offensive to zap/repost. Like when someone shared a pic of their kid playing or their grandma? Zapping seems absurd(to me at least) & reposting would be trespassing on their privacy. Replying is an option but Like is just a shortcut for avoiding such a quagmire of "Nice"/"Great" replies 🤷♀️ Maybe there will be a need for unzappable posts ? 😬
可以用户主页加一个zap栏。
错了，用户主页加一个like栏。
pv 🤙 What's your take on likes, tips, zaps, replies, and other signs of engagement?
#[0]
#[1]
#[0]
I don't think zaps are going to replace likes, unless you're also going to filter zaps by your web of trust. Otherwise it's easy to boost your content with fake zaps.
Zaps are useful between the sender and receiver, but not that much as information for others.
#[0]
How about useful comments?
True. Likes impose such low costs it’s not really a big factor.
They inform about positiv / negative attitude towards content though. Ratio comment / likes etc. That’s their most useful function to me personally
nostr.bitcoiner.social
Agred, now that we have Zaps on Nostr, I'm pretty sure no client should be giving notifications when someone likes a post.
Excited that we can finally move past the "like" paradigm from Facebook/Twitter/etc. and build something unique thanks to Bitcoin!
#[0]
Yes! Likes are obsolete. A necessary solution at the time because micro-payments weren't possible (yet), but now they simply bring more noise and attack vectors. Zaps are the way forward.
#[0]
👀
#[0]
Zapped for abundance mentality 🤙⚡️
You have to @ it for it to work.
#[6]
Likes/upvotes are one of the major problems with social media. They incentivize people to not say what they think, but what they (subconsciously) think will get them the most likes (endorphins). It creates a hive-mind mentality where all social interactions degenerate towards the lowest common denominator.
Zaps are even worse, since in addition to dopamine, people are also being incentivized with actual money. It's the worst aspect of social media, but on steroids.
That’s not true. The underlying problem is stupid people that clout chase, not likes themselves.
Unironically, no likes/zaps/upvotes at all, where the important thing is discourse, not farming dopamine. But that way of doing things isn't as profitable, harder to apply an algorithm to.
Well I can't solve stupid people
Kek, I mean, I don't really mind likes that much. It's just the zaps thing that bothers me, since you're monetizing people's views.
But yeah, it's probably something I definitely need to work on more discipline with too, since it's a easy trap to fall into.
There was a thing called eugenics but someone decided that was racist.
I remember a few years ago when I still worked at a university, a bunch of the students were using "hashtag" in normal speaking conversation. Like they'd make a normal statement and then append "hashtag yolo, hashtag love" to the end of it.
Can’t likes already be removed and base the algorithm on zaps
Not by the amount of sats but instead how many times.
Or possibly a combination of the two
No, some people don’t want to zap, nor do we want to dox ourselves to like something on social media.
Why not use a separate wallet for zaps ? That’s what I do
Bitcoin is directly traceable to on and off ramps, your transfer to a different wallet doesn’t change that.
I use WOS on Nostr. (Max .3 BTC)
CashApp for in person (Max 1 BTC)
And a cold wallet for everything else
Incentive value exchanges🔥
Jackはこう言ってるので、彼の理想はlikeなしのrepost、zapのみなんですよね。
#[0]
Zap, like and repost (i could do without one of those buttons 💯 😆)
"It's like telling them I saw you. You're not alone".
That matters. Being able to communicate in that "form" is a reaction. Maybe this isn't black or white? :)
You’re reading this wrong. Likes inform an algorithm.
Do you have a strategy around managing fake zaps? Or zap automation? Or I’ll zap your posts 10,000 sats, if you zap mine back 10,000?
At present zaps seem like value transfer, but once abused more widely, they are not exactly a measure of value.
The debate be like:
Sats or dopamine?
Both
#zaps gives me dopamine
Fake account here boys
No wonder my Twitter TL was so messed up
Had several abrupt shifts in policy . Lol!
⬇️
Yes, not exclusively in your note, in general it is starting to sound too many times. While it is inevitable that some app will develop it, the fundamental question is, which one will be the first? I have my bet made 😅
On the other hand, nice talking to you 💜
Are there options to switch off aspects of algos, so people can tailor them to their own preferences?
Just got back from Hawaii, now I understand the power in the 🤙
I am not convinced because many social networks users don’t want to actively participate. But it depends of the way you present it.
Swipe left and right could be a good solution like in TikTok.
Maybe you’re stuck in twitter mode. Likes are to tell people you like their content. How the system uses it is a different story.
It is not a fake account, he has removed the nip05 verification, I don't know exactly why.
Just without nip05 it leads one to think that it is a fake account.
On the other hand nice to meet you #[3] 🙂
Once the LN is fully integrated I’d love an option to hide the like and only tap zap…
I agree,zaps and likes are a different thing,a like proves you have seen ir read, or find funny. Maybe it is just a comment or a meme. A zap is a note of value and a different thing. And I am pleased people enjoys so much to give. And please let is not forget the value of comments and feedback that prove we do not echo in silence. Nostr is a social network after all. I am looking forward true organic engagement and new friends.
Likes are the simplest social signal you can send. Our problem is that Big Social has bent social signals into algorithms optimized for engagement. The social signals themselves are not evil.
I think money is a worse proxy for value than simple signals like “approval” that humans have been using forever. Some people are poor and will be under-represented. Some people are rich and can send huge zaps. I’m not interested in the market value of peoples notes. I’m interested in learning from them, being entertained, keeping in touch with friends I’m not with.
Micropayments are great for many things. But let’s not build all relationships on money. Trust is where it’s at.
Liking is akin to nodding..
I can nod even if I disagree with someone. I can nod even if I don’t like what someone is saying. It’s an acknowledgement that I understand what they mean, and because it costs nothing, that’s how it should be used.
High value would correlate with zaps received, not zaps given.
Damus already has this. OnlyZaps mode
How come no one is talking about this?
Don't underestimate the amount of people stacking sats for economic reasons.
There's things I support without wanting to throw money at it.
There has been lots of discussion the past couple days.
People have been flaming JB for removing the ability to like ppls posts that are in OnlyZap mode even tho the recipient will never see it. So he reverted that.
This is all in Damus TestFlight.
You don’t have to b
But it doesn’t hurt, does it?
Walk a mile in my shoes as a choice is a luxury.
In which case, they will have to buy #bitcoin. Thereby, driving the value of #bitcoin up, which, in turn, would destroy their establishment.
Indeed 😊
LN is not in there, you still need to open a wallet
Right, I’m just talking about hiding the like button and only having the option to zap.
Given the extra dopamine release with zaps, and how we saw society change with likes, I'm not sure where we are heading in a way.
Never before social media people were all rushing to record a disaster on their cameras thinking how popular the video was going to be
Now hide reposts and we’re a financial powerhouse (or something)
No I read that right.
You read mine wrong. I dont think there should be an algorithm to inform. An algo is the source of many problems.
Turns social media into a drug.
Encourages advertisers to hack it.
Discourages 1:1 sociality (making actual friends) in place of becoming more popular.
This is also my problem with zaps. Its like paying people to be your friend? Whatever happened to the intrinsic value that relationships used to have on their own??
people voicing their need for "likes" is a bad look for this community - change my mind
Lets put the SOCIAL back in social media! Stop making it about freakin money.
This may not be a bad thing, if only to remind the user of the duality of discourse / financial transaction. Lumping both into a single "thing" may yield unexpected or undesired consequences, like commercialization of thought and speech. The equivalent of clickbait.
We are here to change social media for the better, not keep the status quo.
Likes are cheap and abundant, like fiat. Pure noise.
Are you sure? I never seen him post so much anywhere
Yes I am sure. I don't think he'll answer, but he is
So many people liked this post lol
February 19? 🤯 Seriously? 💗✊🏼💕🧠🏳️🌈💫
#[0]
Any app that uses an algorithm will be one that I will very likely abandon.
I do not trust algorithms to feed me.
The same way I don’t trust AI to teach me.
Any concern that could increase the echo chamber effect someone who’s already susceptible to radicalization? The reason I say that is that if there’s a cost to modifying your recommendations, some people may only want to incur those costs for something they’re passionate about (which, incidentally, are often the same things that radicalize people).
Call him #Nostrdamus
Nice here is the repoost lol and some SATs
exactly this thanx
#thanx4u2
#nostriches
#plebchain
#bitcoin
#zap
I don’t have one, ok so basically is to send someone sats ?! And is called zap ? Btw which one is the best wallet for privacy ? 🙏🏼
So zapping is like.. tipping ?! I don’t have a Lightning address, BTW, Which wallet is the best for privacy concerns? 🙏🏼
I don’t have one, ok so basically is to send someone sats ?! And is called zap ? Btw which one is the best wallet for privacy ? 🙏🏼
Is that an honest question or is it gonna lead to a pitch?
Honest question!
امیدوارم یک روز چنین چیزی اتفاق بیوفتد💖🌹👌
Seriously
💜🫂
Nah likes are fine, they are also polite acknowledgements of stuff you ...well like, but don't need reposting or zapping, or sometimes even inspire a reply. Replies probably more valuable than all of these options imo.
I agree, zap dynamic does not exist outside of social media dynamics, parasocial dynamics, and often signal nothing of value outside of the two parties even.
Like/Reaction is only for "I saw your post and here's my reaction" or "I like your post".
Replacing reactions completely by zaps sounded like you are trying to make nostr bitcoiner exclusive.
Shared this then.
Still agree with it now.
Zaps only ⚡️
HIDE LIKE
i liked this.
Aged well 🍷
💯
I'm sure that for some like myself likes get my dopamine flowing a little, though agree that zaps are more exciting.
Functionally, likes could also add value if you could sort a searchable nostr database by them, or incorportate into seach algo.
But I do think it would be interesting to see how a zaps and reposts only network would grow differently from one with likes.
I don't need to see the same thing reposted 100 times on my feed though
So long as I can send my 🤙 along with my zaps, I'll be happy.
View quoted note →Zaps are the zero emotion way of exchanging value for a post. Removing the react would turn nostr gray and dull. Not all value can be represented by sats.
For the user who wishes to conserve their sats and still send their regards, reacts are tool for them. Just like an interaction in person, you don't give someone a dollar for making you smile. The reaction is by itself the reward.
View quoted note →The guy is light years ahead of everyone
Love to see it & couldn’t agree more
Yes! 🤩
Don't take likes away from me. As a normie, I don't care about bitcoin or zaps.
🚦
What about a zap button that expresses something similar to a “dislike” button? The user experience on platforms like YouTube suffer without them imo
looking at it from a human perspective I'd say a repost is something you yourself would say or vehemently agree with, while a like is something you just like. 🥰
Yes. I guess. I'm not really onboard with this, although can't really grasp solid arguments.
The marketing would have to be good, because Nostr doesn't have already mentioned reputation, doesn't solve problems of a normie..basically I'm coming to the thought that this thing is basically against onboarding new people.
Why would anyone learn about zap and invest own money into something so wild with small reach? Nostr is already fighting this, letting people think they have to pay (I know, one sat, still you need to have it first) will drive many off.
I know what's good here, but hope you'll get my point. I think Nostr isn't grown up yet.
On the other hand it might be better to do it soon and grow slower than big noisy shift later on.
Also it would be nice to have feature, that zaps 1 immediately. I'm on fruit and zapping everyone for every shit would drive me crazy.
I've unfollowed people who repost too much, it's like they add their timeline to mine. Spam. People who put in valuable posts, but then comes a wave of other stuff. It gets annoying quickly, no matter how good the stuff is.🧐
Mention is way more interesting, the reposter has to put in more effort than just a click.
Not all of us have a billion dollars sir
Yeah Im not reposting this but I do agree lol
You'll have to stake your reputation on it then
⚡️ > 🔁 > ❤️
Why I zap when I can on Damus! The best zapping client!
I just put my reputation on the line Fren with the repost of your note…….
But it is merited as I concur…….
I liked your note, but it's ok, because I did so ironically.
No, you don't need to have it first. You can get zapped but saying good things :)
Yes! I just got here a few days ago. I have but a miniscule number of Sats. Even if I had a whole sackful of Bitcoin though, I can't seem to figure out this wallet situation yet. I can't zap anyone using my clunky current setup.
And a thumbs down takes away a sat 😂
Let's make a deal...
jack
I hope someday reposts and zaps completely replace the need for “likes”/🤙🏼.
Reposts and zaps are true value exchange…and have a real cost: your reputation or money.
Likes are superficial and exist only to inform an algorithm.
Relevance algorithms have their place, but they are best informed by a truly costly action.
View quoted note →
Where’s the button for that
I disagree
@jack
Reposts extend reach for notes you deem important enough to show up on your timeline.
Zaps are an acknowledgement of value recieved. It's v4v but it's only a numerical transaction.
Likes on nostr can show emotion and tell a story because we can pick the emojis. I'm intentional with my likes.
View quoted note →What if the post doesn't really give me any value but I still like it? I mean come on y'all.. I can like something but not feel I have to pay for it.
jack
I hope someday reposts and zaps completely replace the need for “likes”/🤙🏼.
Reposts and zaps are true value exchange…and have a real cost: your reputation or money.
Likes are superficial and exist only to inform an algorithm.
Relevance algorithms have their place, but they are best informed by a truly costly action.
View quoted note →
I love that this has over 1400 likes. 🤔
And time.
No more likes. I only zap now. If I can’t even zap one skinny sat, do I even really like it. I think not.
Stay humble and zap sats!!
There is nothing wrong with algorithms choosing the content you see, if you are allowed to choose the algorithm or define the algorithm by your self.
![[ARCHIVED] Jay's avatar](https://i.nostr.build/9NquibWjyPXiz2Q4.png)
