Replies (106)
for "taking off some of my contacts from whatsapp" I mean, I dont talk very well english
yeah, whatsapp is the universal messaging alternative from the days of expensive mobile messaging fees
Multi platform, mod tools for groups, broadcast only groups, etc...
It's hard to convey to a North American the scale.
@npub1nv4j...x0gr works via WhatsApp
and the worst thing is that it is "good enough" to keep all people in and (mostly) happy...
I see, so pretty much like Telegram. We definitely need that, Telegram is the fastest growing messenger by far in recent years because of these features, especially because of broadcast only super channels.
The convenience and the utility of it is actually amazing. the centralisation not so much.
network effect is a thing
In Notth America, we love us some SMS. 🤣
TG profits from scams, so they don't fix the scams. It's unusable.
Best way to share your thoughts with the telco.
It’s a PITA. There’s #threema #signal and others but ppl are just lazy & don’t care.
Wait until it becomes a more fully fledged Facebook/Instagram merge, and then layers on payments
There is no feature parity and they came MUCH later.
lol
yes, better to send them through meta via whatsapp, or whatever russian company runs viber or telegram or whatever
makes me sad how so many popular nostr folk don't even think about the fact that we aren't delivering this capability because of idiotic, superstitious, deluded ideas about privacy and security, and how long it has taken you all bitches to implement auth, beacuse ... and i probably quote "authing is doxxing myself" and YOU SER are part of this problem
That would be a problem on Nostr as well. WoT has to be improved tremendously.
I frankly was a lot in trouble trying migrate people elsewhere. Most of them use telegram that is worse for some aspect, only some of them would install signal (that is still a shitcoiner centralized platform, maybe the best out there, but still...). So in the end, instead of "replace" whatsapp, I ended collecting more and more incompatible crappy platforms.
We need a protocol that leverage the best that nostr has done and create finally a "better alternative to centralized messaging platform"...
And then we will finally stay offline talking each others about how we saved the internet
The correct answer is it's not better in features. Meta subsidizes the data usage through whatsapp in Latin America and so people started using whatsapp en masse because it was free. By now the network effect is so huge that it's hard to topple.
yeah, it's pathetic, and the doublespeak and mind-blindlness is epic
just first mover advantages and net-effect
Oh yeah in NY if you don’t have an iPhone you are screwed. All parents text groups force you to have an iPhone. It’s such a pain.
WhatsApp uses the Sender Key group model, which supports more group members compared to the pair-wise group model previously used by Signal.
The new group chat protocol, MLS (Message Layer Security), can support even more group members than the Sender Key group model and offers better encryption security.
If you're interested in various encrypted group chat methods, you can check out the comparison note below.
View quoted note →ROFL, just complained and asked about exactly that.
i think signal was actually the first in this list tho
whatsapp rose by its being bought by facebook
Maybe something can be built on the
Onboarding | Pubky.app
Pubky.app - Unlock the web.
protocol? I am very bullish on this after listening to Guy’s take on it. Long form article about it here (X unfortunately),
X (formerly Twitter)
Big Bad John (@BitcoinErrorLog) on X
Pubky: The Next Web
I am still, not completely sure what the attraction to WhatsApp is... sms replacement?
This is one of the most common reasons I've heared, but not only for Latin America. I've heard it in Europe and Asia as well.
Greetings from Germany: What is WhatsApp? 😁
I am still, not completely sure what the attraction to WhatsApp is... sms replacement?
Exactly, name me any messenger and I probably have an account. I mostly delete them after they fulfilled their job, but the list of them remaining longer on my devices keeps increasing.
yeah, but whatsapp was the first to become really popular. When facebook bought it, it was already the most used app, at least here in italy (was like the most expensive acquistition ever made at the time).
After the acquisition, the original founder of whatsapp joined with 50 million $ to the development of a little niche app noone uses called "chatsecure" by the cryptographer Moxie Marlinspike, then they renamed it to signal and started "recreating whatsapp but open source".
Signal started late and always been many steps behind whatsapp in every features (except implementing signal protocol for cryptography).
In South America and Mexico its common to get unlimited data to access the Facebook/meta network with basic phone plans. So it was cheaper to just drop sms and calling and use WhatsApp instead
This except it's not only North America vs world, e.g. China totally different, I guess Europe is a little more mixed, plus I'm sure whatsapp does pretty well in NA.
Still "this" because it's absurd how dominant it is in e.g. LatAm.
DETERMINISTIC OPTIMISM 🌞
Ignoring the public square, outside of North America ALL coordination happens on WhatsApp.
Moms groups, traffic police groups, raw milk, bars, doctors, lawyers, etc...
Facebook, Twitter, signal, iMessage, all these things don't exist.
It's ALL WhatsApp.
Anyone working on that?
View quoted note →
yeah, in southeastern europe it was viber, i think northeastern europe it was telegram, it's whatsapp here in portugal, my landlords and ladies all have asked to use it, even though we all have $10/month SMS prepaid accounts with vodafone and whatnot
signal was actually the first, they merged out of redphone and some other thing i forget, some SMS type deal, they actually were the ones who pionered using SMS as auth right in the beginning, circa 2013, i had redphone on my sony xperia android back then
so, yeah, you obviously were not there when it was all starting, circa 2012-2013, it was definitely signal first, and everyone else was riding on top of that, and it was open source originally, that's part of how it happened
signal -> whatsapp -> telegram is the sequence i recall
i was in balkan so maybe it looked a little different, they had viber, which also was big i think in west asia, ie india, pakistan, georgia, etc
Still using fax?
yeah, that definitely was not the sequence of events
signal started in about 2014-15 and their protocol was used by the rest of them, so-called "double ratchet" protocol, and you may also have heard of "OTR" messaging, that also came around the same time, it was out of the same school of cryptography development
signal was born out of the merger of the FIRST SMS based auth service, and everything else uses that now, whatsapp, telegram, viber, they all use that, but it was invented by Redphone
here's some history
Open Whisper Systems - Wikipedia
Signal, SimpleX and 0xChat 😁🙌
The encryption protocol OTR (Off-the-Record) was released in 2004.
View quoted note →The difference between 0xChat and Signal or Simplex Chat is that its end-to-end encryption lacks forward secrecy. This is a fundamental distinction.
It’s true. Everything happens on WhatsApp. It’s terrifying to think about how much data they have.
I think I was playing around it as well around that time. Even did couple of calls over their encrypted connection. Felt pretty 7331 haxx0r at the time. But it was lagging as hell. Probably would've gotten use to it if someone else would've used it also. But they were pretty unknown. I heard about them because we had some innovation hackathon at the place I worked then. One proposed project for the hackathon was encrypted chat app, and after searching, found the redphone. Another project was planning poker for software development teams.
You mean nostr
Thread:
DETERMINISTIC OPTIMISM 🌞
Ignoring the public square, outside of North America ALL coordination happens on WhatsApp.
Moms groups, traffic police groups, raw milk, bars, doctors, lawyers, etc...
Facebook, Twitter, signal, iMessage, all these things don't exist.
It's ALL WhatsApp.
Anyone working on that?
View quoted note →
This is super true in Spain courts have found WhatsApp messages legally binding and I have signed contracts where any WA communications is explicitly valid if arbitration is needed
0xchat has groups
I mispelled "chatsecure", was " textsecure" instead... whatsapp launched in 2009, and reached great popularity in the first years of smartphones here in italy. The facebook acquisition happened in 2014.
Then has been "upgraded" with the signal protocol by the collaboration with the signal guys in later years.
nono, whatsapp was far earlier, remember people buying esplicitely android phones and not nokia symbian to have whatsapp working better
they weren't using e2ee until after textsecure and redphone invented it, idk what to say
yes, that's the story as i understood it, everyone adopted it, telegram also, and viber
Yes, i hate it!
all i remember was that whatsapp became very popular by 2014, i recall it vividly from my time staying at a netherlands christian hostel in late 2014 "wawwawawwawwaw"
but signal had already appeared at that point and they were all adopting the redphone/textsecure protocols
Absolutely mental how much.
Absolutely, that's the vibe I got too! Everyone's on board with it, even Telegram and Viber jumped in! 🔥📲 #Trending
Mostly true. S Korea is on Kakao, China is on WeChat, I don't know about Russia because I haven't been there (guessing telegram), but where Whatsapp is dominant, it's really truly dominant (South America, most of Europe, Middle East and Africa). As in, nobody has anything else.
View quoted note →
In Latin America, WhatsApp came when there was no other multi-platform comm solution yet. There was Viber, and that did attract some users. However, the clarity of VoIP calls was precarious.
As someone correctly pointed out, Meta—Facebook at that time—subsidized WhatsApp adoption with local telecoms. You would get XX minutes of WhatsApp in your mobile plan, which was ridiculously cheap in comparison to the prices we pay for voice and SMS. Maybe that's what NA people don't get. Elsewhere, SMS can be extremely expensive, like more than 1 USD each. Imagine how expensive that would be for those people who communicate through single words per message.
Nowadays, 99% of people and businesses in Latin America rely on WhatsApp, including public services. Police dispatch cars through it, and emergency services dispatch ambulances through it.
I am the one person that I know that does not use it. The consequences are big.
For example, I can't order anything online because the days of e-commerce systems are gone. Even if I get an app for food delivery or whatever, there will be a step to confirm the order with the seller via WhatsApp.
The furniture store will have an Instagram account, but the only way to reach it if you want to ask for a measurement visit is to send a WhatsApp message.
So, how do I live? I have to drive and physically go to the stores that still have a brick-and-mortar presence, stop by, and ask for whichever services I require. When they ask my WhatsApp to confirm the appointment, and I say I don't have it, there's always a pause and the question, "How are we supposed to contact you?" to which I answer, "Call me." They always look at me with oddity, then either express annoyance or realize that phone calls are still possible.
A clear example of American Exceptionalism
Stepped away from whatsapp completly two years ago and told friends & family & wprking groups that i don't wanna force anyone to switch over but signal will be the only broader known messenger i will use from now on.
A lot of resistance met but slowly more people installed it and also some groups followed.
Can't force people to leave it behind. Can only try to set an example by your own conduct in my point of view.
they use pigeons in Germany.
electricity is too expensive
I’m surprised signal hasn’t taken off more
It will be soon. 🤙
You know I am. 🤺
This seems like a really important observation. Nostr whatsapp incoming!
It was the first option that popped up after BlackBerry PIN died (I know North Americans have been using iMessage but for the rest of the world it was WhatsApp). Now it relays on its network effect.
Where are you from?
That network effect is a tide that carries everyone.
keet.io seems like a promising project!
Interesting perspective! WhatsApp sounds a lot like the WeChat of South America. I had a similar experience in China for work—everything revolved around WeChat, and it was nearly impossible to get by without it.
in my country, it's ALL Facebook groups. Same shit, but yeh
Outside the US, Apple products are not the majority. Whatsapp is the top choice for Android users.
The UX is pretty meh still, that goes for WhatsApp too though
In Saudi Arabia we relay mainly in two chat apps for communications WhatsApp and Telegram.
There are other apps for social media and news like X, Snapchat, and Instagram.
We don't use Facebook or Messenger or even iMessage.
Rely** 🫢🤣
I swear I really don’t understand why.
The only explanation is really the first mover advantage in terms of encrypted messaging apps, catchy name and “good” UI.
I have a feeling there’s another explanation related to culture that we can’t understand unless we live there. The other explanation could maybe also explain why tether is being used over Bitcoin in those same markets. 🤷♂️
One things for sure. Once it’s set it’s set and people don’t change it because of losing network effects
iMessage is iPhone only. And the User Interface of threads in groups is horrible.
Absolutely true in Egypt. WhatsApp is all over the place.
My husband working with all his vendors for his construction project? Every single one on WhatsApp.
The network effect is strong with this one. When your mom tells you to join the WhatsApp group you can only say yes mom
Yeah in Brazil doctor's appointments go through whatsapp, even banks integrate with whatsapp to provide money transfers via Pix (instant payments)
Yep. All WhatsApp here
They processed more than 500k messages per second
Yeah here in the UAE it's common for services and delivery guys to assume they can contact you on whatsapp for the phone number given.
And even the spams there have reached the level of spam call and emails…
Interesting. I have never used it. not once. USA proud baby. 😄
Not using it - and I still exist.
Anyone who wants to contact me has to do it a different way.
Life’s good.
Keet.io
I have a pet peeve on WhatsApp. I have absolutely no reason to use it except to talk to my dad, who *does* use it. I'm trying to get everyone off of it, and go to Telegram, the other popular coordination app.
But I understand that Telegram is not much better in terms of privacy.
There was dozens of p2p messengers in the early-mid 2000s which were private, decentralized and secure, did we literally lose all that tech or are some of them still functional?
They do now. It is live in most countries.
You mean like AIM, ICQ, and Jabber?
Jabber at least is still around, but hardly anyone uses it.
I forgot you wrote the "decentralized" part so really that only leaves Jabber.
Signal and Threema are big in Germany among doctors, lawyers, business executives etc.
fake news
In the whole of Europe too, everyone has and only uses whatsapp
so far I resisted to join whatsapp, using signal, tg instead.
Jabber/XMPP was one of of them, but there were a ton of them based around a P2P architecture. I don't remember names unfortunately.
LINE (super app) for Japan and South Korea.
What do you mean by closed community networks?
Imagine invite-only end to end encrypted spaces (with nostr relays acting as a communication layer) for a community of people.
Everything is encrypted, in a provable way, and everything is stored not on some server, but on your device/across the devices of the community members.
I think 0xChat has this group function already…or maybe it’s SimpleX chat…
There are already a couple clients that offer this…I just saw someone post one a few weeks ago, I just don’t recall the exact app name
Check:
Secure Messaging Apps Comparison | Privacy Matters
This site compares secure messaging apps from a security & privacy point of view. These include Facebook Messenger, iMessage, Skype, Signal, Simple...
rate
🟩=3
🟨=1
🟥=0
Result
86 Threema = 86 Security Points = most secure Messenger
81 SimpleX Chat
80 Signal
77 Session
68 Wire
61 Wickr (Amazon)
56 Element / Matrix
37 Apple iMessage
32 WhatsApp
27 Telegram
26 Facebook Messenger
10 Microsoft Skype
That's only a chat functionality, I believe there's more to a community than just the ability to send simple messages, imagine an invite-only forum, an invite-only marketplace, or decision making platform. Everything still being encrypted e2e, so the forum messages are only visible to the members of your CCN, the decisions are only between your CCN members and that's the same for everything else you can think of. Videos, music, doesn't matter. It's all there for your Closed Community Network.
There will even be the ability to run lightning nodes controlled by the whole community
You end up finding out how important someone thinks to maintain communication with you. I can understand not installing an app that reduces privacy/security, but when there's resistance in installing a second app that's an upgrade in that sense, they are probably working through a different value system than yours.
