Hamas is hiding in our local relays?

I personally like simple software.

Mossad

Me too

But that's the cool thing about Nostr. Clients are developer subjective. Devs can really show what they want to see in the world, no right way or wrong way. Just swap clients. Just nos2x that nsec and swing clients like it's the 70's again

I'm a normie -> I fully agree 😂

I understand but I'm not a Normy so...

Yes sir, I may even also be out

Thank goodness. A dev that prunes for the ideal shape.

So don't update and I can keep using amber to sign?

Correct

Muun wallet vs Zeus. I understand Zeus is much more performant but using Muun is so enjoyable (side note if Muun had coin control it would be 10/10)

Don't flinch, be the alpha contrarian of Nostr. Make the other contrarians tremble and question their contrarian positions.

I believe in your vision

Ouch, gotta bail at that one. Good luck

Keeping local amber integration? Id hate to have to stop using the app because it forced me to enter my private key

I wish the world wasn't so shitty that this is the best path.

What's the preferred sign in method you're going with? I still maintain that as long as the nsec doesn't leave the browser and is only process locally, there is no issue there.

It's annoying for me too, that's how I use it too, but I don't think it's how my target audience will use it. Sorry man, tough choices are being made

Keep the remote signer option around, using them should be encouraged For new users they can generate and keep an nsec in the app and on a cloud backup Wisp is the only Android client besides Primal to have a built-in Spark wallet (although you could just install blitz/WoS/whatever spark wallet if you went to use another Nostr app)

Login with Google/Apple

I guess I'll just stay on an old version. Is remote signing really that much maintenance?

Will that affect people already logged in via a doodah? If I have to use either of those I’ll have to switch clients, would be a shame as Wisp has been great so far.

Or nsec raw, just no remote signing

Huh, I hadn't even thought about onboarding that way

It was fun while it lasted, I guess. Do what you gotta do though.

I hate to see it go, but you do you. I have no room to be critical about it. It's your software, you're entitled to build it the way you see fit.

For people who log in with Google/Apple, where does the nsec get stored? Do you send it to Google/Apple?

The nsec IS the Google/Apple account

Sorry, I don't quite understand. Like, it's deterministically derived from the Google/Apple account?

good luck friend, open water ye go

it is cool to think you could build a very successful app that you don't use because you prefer a different way to interact with nostr and can still interact with the users using Wisp. Sounds like a win to me 🤙

Is this because your trying to implement DMs and you need synchronous encryption and decryption methods?

That's part of it, there's also new signers that come out and they have bugs but it's unclear if wisp is the source of the bug, or weird bugs from new versions of signers and so on

@utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 is the first developer to complete the challenge!!

🤯 But also kudos for having strong product vision, that's rare even in bigger acts.

Bunkers must die.

That's where I'm headed with regarding my Discord alt as well, doing changes that other devs might not agree with, and the reason for that is the answer to the question: Who am I targeting? Answering that question led to very obvious answers to decisions throughout planning and development (one of which for example: MLS was overkill, so I dropped it and used LKH, and opting for event-based group design rather than relay-based group design)

So, I might just stop updating your app 🤷‍♂️

Maybe a plugin system is possible here. Normie by default but allow plugins (separate projects in themselves) can be selected at runtime by the user if they want to add additional functionality.

Good luck with the normies

Personally I prefer they stay on X and bluesky. But nostr is for everyone.

I imagined seeing the remote sign option might give the nostr naive something to think about even as they proceed to click the Google/apple option. I wouldn't have thought it would be problematic to keep, but I'm also not a dev and wouldn't have known. I can see your rationale and still really appreciate your work

Minimalism is the way. 👀👏

This is the bronze age collapse all over again

What is the highest cypherpunk version?

what about

keytr - Passkey Login for Nostr

Encrypt your nsec with a passkey. Log in to any Nostr client with your fingerprint.

passkeys are a widely adopted standard and many normies use them. granted, a lot of normies also don't have password managers outside of the default ones, and those may not have cross device sync. lmk your thoughts!

Fiatjaf removed DMs from Branle years ago. GrandpaTalking.gif

"...and bunkers just ain't it" Finally someone with fucking balls.

should normies paste their nsec on every nostr app they have installed? because i don't see what else to do if one's nsec can't be centralized somewhere (on iOS bunkers seem to be the only solution, whereas nip-55 does the job on android)

Hmm I was digging being able to dump everything into citrine

Normies will never use either, so they’re probably better off just using Apple and Google logins to back up their keys.

if remote signing is gone on wisp, primal will remain the best (pseudo-) client for "normies" period.

from a user pov, one of the biggest features of nostr is account portability. how do they get that if it means giving away their nsec to every app they try? is there even an actual implementation that's in production for big tech logins?

That'll be a killer feature for what your goal is.

puke

Imagine a “Login with clave” button alongside SWA and login with google -> deep link redirects to app store -> clave opens with the login context -> creates nsec and redirects back to the original app, using another deeplink to transfer context I mean this could work, right? Instead of copy pasting strings around… (cc @⚡️ᗪㄖ匚⚡️ )

pro users also can accidentally paste their nsec to an app that submits every letter to the cloud. maybe sleep a bit longer on that decision, and wait for better ideas to come up... hey, how about wisp plugins? ;)

Yea could work (and I’ve built the backend for that with universal links). But I totally get the decision, and I’ve tried helping out with nip-46 on Wisp. Thing is, @Clave Remote Signer is about a month old, the nip46 spec is poorly implemented by most clients (and unfortunately also by some Nostr libraries), and it’s not a good normie feature (yet). So if @utxo the webmaster 🧑‍💻 goal is to make a client for the masses then I agree that’s the right move. We’ll get a secure login for wisp iOS eventually but that’s a good feature for a future build/fork that we should perfect before expecting the mainstream to use.

I think normies just use iCloud Keychain unknowingly (and Google Password Manager on android). Passkey login looks like a win IMO

You know something? You could go all in and add some tracking libraries to understand more of the normies’ behavior and make more informed decisions.

I know this trick would work for me, but then being curious isn’t exactly a common normie behavior so maybe utxo is onto something.

All in the name of mass adoption. As if that is a good thing.

You don't need to justify to anyone, just keep doing your thing

wat mean?

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Now that you mention it, that sounds right. Good point

Should add log in with Facebook Instagram etc. to create new account that clones your other social media and shares your notes as status updates. Now that would bring in some normies

@Bitcoin Mechanic was right. Nothing good survives the normie. View quoted note →

😂🤙

Interesting counterintuitive idea. Normies will be normies, and nostr should be for everyone, just like Bitcoin. Presumably they'll have their nsecs included in Google/Apple/Planter databases.

New citrine can do it for you

1.0.2 as it still has Tor support

GitHub

Release v1.0.2 · barrydeen/wisp

What's Changed fix: support 16 KB page size for Android 15+ by @barrydeen in #493 feat: add QR scan tab to drawer QR sheet by @barrydeen in #500 ...

Godspeed!

Will amber support stay?

they got him bois. issa wrap.

Why not just hide that stuff behind a little advanced tab in settings instead of killing it off totally. Anyone who wants to use those things is happy to put up with bugs. We have been here since Astral Ninja and have come to expect that as part of the journey.

No reason any of those services would ever see the nsec if implemented properly.

Seems we had some nice few month together. Hope the normie wisp will be something to recommeend to my normie friends. I stay tuned meanwhile.

Ok

Make it easy for normies to use your App then once everyone is ready you can add a choice of extra layers of security but asking a normie to download another App to sign into your App is asking to much right now !!!

Sad

There would nonetheless be a link connecting their npub and their google/apple ID.

Yep, and those people don't care. It makes no difference to the client if that's what people choose; they are still joining the protocol and many may not even be aware of it. That's good UX, especially because interoperability is baked in once they have a key.

This decision to remove remote signing and local relays from Wisp shows the kind of ruthless prioritization that actually ships products normies will use. it matters because trying to be everything to everyone usually means being nothing to anyone and sometimes saying no is how you build something people can confidently share with their non-technical friends. Credit to the builder for being honest about targeting mainstream usability over cypherpunk purism.

Maybe stop calling your target user base "normies". Just a suggestion :)

You endanger a lot of people. People used those tools because 20 years ago Google still said they would "not do evil". Wisp sets these people up for failure in a highly adversarial environment. This is playing with the lives of people just like KYC is killing real people.

No, people endanger themselves. Either you get someone to frictionlessly sign-up or they don't sign up at all. Once they are in the ecosystem, if it means enough to them they can make a new key pair. No option is forced, people are free to make their own choices.

You have a responsibility when you hand sharp knives to 4 year olds (normies). You can waive away all responsibility fine. People often simply stick with their first account even more so after they invested some time into it. Psychological effects are real and if you know about those you want to educate people so they have a real choice. I doubt this will happen here.

But an option to remote sign is not what is preventing mass adoption or great UX. Is it? I agree with your premise but remote signing seems like an important step in the direction of sovereignty and such. Think on it. Who are you building Wisp for? Bitcoin Maxi's or Normies currently using Candy Crush and Bluesky?

Candy crush on bluesky

LOL. 😒 haha. That app has keys stored in a Google Doc. Very secure.

But has millions of users

You could always make your own client with your own vision for it

Nah they can't, just cry and bitch and complain pretty much all they can do

1.0.2 throws errors. Back to Amethyst!

What if I initially signed in with Amber when I first installed? What's gonna happen on update?

You will be logged out.

How do you expect people to use nostr if not via bunker?

Ok those are fighting words

Not everyone should use a bunker, but deleting the option removes a pretty important escape hatch. The moment people want multi-device convenience without sliding back into app custody, bunkers start making a lot more sense.

introduce phone number also, similar to telegram or signal could be dope

The same way most people already use it RAW

did you investigate this? I think about 100% of your users used a signer/amber How about you leave Wisp alone and just create a second client called Cuckstr?

We don't have any users on nostr, I'm not building wisp so a few hundred of us have more choice, I'm building to try to onboard millions. And I know they won't be using signers. How about my code is free and open source and anyone can fork it? Why do I have to do everything?

So all the users that are using it now can keep using it without accidentally updating the app and not being able to use it anymore; And then separately you have another app you can go target those millions of users of yours with in a way the current user base wont notice anything of. I mean, its your app....but you are also the one going into a different breaking direction. So you could also just....not do that and come with a new app🤷‍♂