Will thinks it is OK to doxx people. This is not OK. Doxxing is NEVER OK (outside of immediate threats of grievous bodily harm or death). This is not the type of behavior that is acceptable, and the displeasure of all plebs who agree should be felt en mass.
Not cool, dude. NOT cool. 😑
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Replies (118)
He does a lot of not cool things. He ain’t alone.
Yeah, but outright doxxing?
So friggin' gross.
I am so very glad he muted me. But hey, doesn't mean I can't make other people aware of how douchey he is.
He seems to have forgotten that the primary method Nostr protects npubs from censorship is by allowing for anonymity. Doxxing npubs is completely against the core ethos of Nostr.
Also, just mind-bogglingly unprofessional behavior.
I publish takedown requests, i don’t even read them. Not my fault he ties his real name to his npub
I'm sure you are very sorry...
I am definitely not sorry. i will happily doxx anyone trying to compromise nostr censorship resistance via legal attack.
if they don’t like that they shouldn’t email me with legal threats with their real name
Could have stripped email address and real name easily. Censorship is also not cool, but doxxing is a big no no.
So what you’re saying is play stupid games, win stupid prizes? Who would’ve expected that!
When you are so cinfident. Ask your date:
"Hey babe, when you would message me in private, that you feel very unconfortable with some friend or someone of my family. Is it fair, when I reveal this message to all my friends and family without asking you for permission?"
You are missing the obvious point that he knew where to send that e-mail and he has a lawyer.
What an unpleasant situation. Both parts crossed some serious limits seems to me
You are not helping Nostr this way, people will percetive it as dangerous and unfair, they will tell friends to avoid it, and they will simply stay on Facebook/Instagram/X/whatever.
It's better to support Nostr ethos respecting user's privacy, explaining how things work, and possibly sharing a little kindness, since their pain could be real.
feel free to unfollow me and discourage people from following me.
Well, it might not be worth it. Better look into relays on tor and clients talking to those.
Maybe meta relays that forward requests to tor but don't store stuff ...
I mean, that works too
What a dumbass.
Like you're so touched you're willing to docx someone just to prove a point.
Deserves a poesklap imo but that's just my opinion
The doxxing was way worse.
Also, companies running websites (which is effectively what a relay is, with the client a sort of neutral or semi-neutral browser) should be prepared for receiving take-down orders and should respond to them in a calm, professional manner. Nostr was literally invented to handle this sort of thing, gracefully.
That is the whole point of the protocol: Take-down orders are irrelevant on Nostr because you can just publish on some other relay, or even on your own relay. **That is why we are here.**
all I've asked was to have the personal info redacted. I have no problem with the email being public. Anyway, this npub is now considered compromised. Thanks Will, nostr was fun while it lasted. Good thing I'm completely de-googled.
Saying NEVER and then giving a caveat is logically incoherent. I would NEVER abuse somebody's trust (unless I lied to them.)
Also what is the issue here? There is no privacy expectation. If I send an email to some person I don't know personally, why would I expect them to not publish the contents of whatever I send them?
Y'all don't know the difference between data segmentation and it shows.
PUBLIC - Information anyone can obtain
PRIVATE - Information Trusted Parties can obtain and disseminate.
SECRET - Information only the individual knows.
you're a petulant, arrogant, egotistical immature kid.
grow up.
One can tell that you didn't bother reading. There was no threat made. It's a good thing that I'm de-googled or I'd be upset by your unprofessional behaviour.
dumb fake bitch is at it again
its over 🥱👋View quoted note →
That's fine.
Not redacting his name is not.
It's unprofessional and irresponsible.
You're worse than either The Gribder or fuckstr. You exacerbated the situation in a way that is just plain wrong.
Your unrepentant attitude speaks volumes.
Proof read?
So what's the issue here? Can I just send you an email with my real name in it, and if you publish it, I can call you an asshole?
Like, what? What binding agreement, moral or legal, does Will have to not publish anything he receives? Especially when previously stated that he publishes all takedown requests.
Man, I'd love to see when @jb55 and @TheGrinder started dating. "Don't share this email, okay boo?"
No. It is not logically incoherent.
I won't intentionally kill someone UNLESS they threaten my life or property.
That's the line. That's the point of no return.
I disagree. There is a privacy expectation. For example, I've bought goods from sellers on nostr. I don't ever expect those sellers to publicly broadcast my real name and address. Doing so outside of very extraordinary circumstances is straight up wrong.
I understand the differences you point out much more thoroughly.
Naw. He's completely unrepentant. No care. Aloof to the harm he's caused (to himself, grinder, and the wider trust he's enjoyed as a dev).
Exactly my point.
See the bait and switch? You said "NEVER" and now you're saying you "won't." Those two concepts are very different. Never means even if someone threatens your life or property.
Again, there is no privacy expectation with an untrusted party. I trust my wife to not divulge information about me to others. SHE STILL CAN, but then she becomes an untrusted party. Do you follow?
Giving your home address to some freak on the internet who sells beef jerky is also probably not the greatest privacy model. This is why you would do something like create a PO box or a secondary address not tied to your identity.
"Much more thoroughly" has yet to be demonstrated.
I'm less grumpy about Grinders email than the doxxing.
Will just made a bad situation worse. Totally unnecessary.
I would never publish an e-mail, DM or fax, especially unredacted. These are clearly meant to be interpersonal or B2C or B2B interactions and were never intended for public consumption.
Also, the burden of descretion is higher on a corporation like Damus Inc., not lower. My feed is constantly full of people horrified by corporate data leaks and a general lack of respect for the care owed to other people's personal data. But when Will does it on purpose for the lulz, we're supposed to be like,
Well, that's okay. 😊
At any rate, Will can do whatever he likes, but he has seriously damaged his brand and the Nostr brand, risked his app store listing, hurt someone who has always supported Damus, and has probably broken civil, corporate, and criminal law in both Canada and in Germany.
He is doing this because he seems himself as The Next Elon, standing on top of the ruins of a database he nukes every 6 weeks, and fighting for the permanence of some idiotic troll's mental vomit. Because the protocol doesn't protect against censorship, only Will does.
Okay.
You shouldn't be asking why Will shouldn't do this. You should be asking why no one else would do this.
Legal takedown notices are a state threat. The claim of "destruction of evidence" of crimes is also a state threat.
Could have also not volunteered the information lmao.
If youre gonna send a mass email threatening developers, then you should use your brain and try thinking about it before you do.
Even if you have a bunch of retarded nostriches hyping you up because theyre bored and need to take sides on any issue so they can feel like they have friends
Good riddance
She's smarter and less fake than pretty much anyone else I've met from nostr IRL.
You are just a trash-tier troll. Bugger off.
It is an expectation to not have PII published by another party. Doing so is at the very least rude and in other cases deadly.
I trust the people I giver that info to. I do not give that into to people I don't trust.
"Never/except" is a rather long standing issue with being human. You not understanding that is the same thing as "will not/except" is just siilly.
happy to hear that.
and she loves 🍷 tell her to take it easy its just @fuckstr 🥱
You’re not a good person.
Great Pontiff. Again, I have no expectation of privacy when sending personal information to a person, company, or otherwise. Regardless of the ramifications to said person or company, I would only be endangering my own anonymity.
Your personal annotations aside, protocols don't "do" anything. Social use is the "doing" part. If I run bitcoin on my local network, the protocol isn't "doing" anything. Nostr's social use determines what it protects or doesn't. Data availability is uncensorable only if YOU make sure to back up what you find important. Anonymity is only guaranteed if you don't doxx yourself to some corporate email.
But the last line is true, I DO wonder why no other relay operators seem to have the fortitude to publish takedown requests instead of silently removing users on their end.
oh sorry its the ai psycho fake woman i thought you are defending lolita again 😂
Anybody that bothered reading knows it was obviously a legal threat, you disingenuine retard
It literally isn't the same. Rape and Murder is NEVER okay. See? How I used it correctly? I won't kill someone unless [Name the circumstances]. Is a different usage and meaning entirely.
And on the issue of trust, good that's what you are supposed to do. Now, ask yourself why someone would trust a stranger or a corporation.
Pfft. Only because legal jurisprudence is currently mostly the purview or the state.
1. Damus is incorporated as a company recognized by a government.
2. Damus, as a corpetation must comply with laws in the state under which it is incorporated.
3. Someone filing a request for information under the current structure IS TO BE EXPECTED, even if it is ineffectual in this case.
I don't see that email as a "takedown notice."
Destruction of evidence is certainly a definition of convenience for agents of the state, but there's no reason to not request assistence with gathering information in a case of harassment and libel.
Too true. 🤣
I'll agree with rude only if the person is a trusted party. If an untrusted party, that is just foolishness on the part of the person giving out PII.
Was it mommy or daddy that never loved you?
You really don't pay attention to anyone at all.
Noted.
Because it's a liability and a pain in the butt. That's really it.
Especially since a lot of those are probably related to CSAM and other very morally unsavory things.
You really are a moron.
I just want to share my thought, and eventually start a discussion, about this specific matter. I don't usually over react with passive-aggressive unfollowing :)
Did you read the bit about "removal of notes?"
That is a takedown request.
Dude, how did he read the "defamatory" remarks in the firstplace? Save the notes to your own relay. What expectation is there to preserve your requested data on someone else's computer?
Damus is not domiciled in Germany. So, that's the end of that.
What I'm saying is more along the lines of "homicide is never okay except for defense of life and property."
Murder obviously is not. Rape is obviously not.
Why shouldn't someone trust anyone about anything?
I'm not saying you can't determine what you want on your relay. I'm saying you're the only one who can determine what you want on your relay. Legal and moral liabilities are not yours to determine for someone else (at least not enforcibly).
thank you you made my day
now you can fuck off
Fair point.
I do think that Will used to be considered a trusted party, but since he's not interested in being a decent human, more we know and are reminded that some people can't behave civility.
So far
That is not what the word "never" means. I am informing you that you are using it incorrectly.
Never means "not in any circumstance"
Won't/shouldn't means "in normal circumstances, you would or should not but, there are exceptions"
Because data is a barer asset. One who has it can use it as they see fit. If you don't want someone doing something with that data that you don't like, do not give it to them. If you trust them to not do something with that data you wouldn't like then, you are adding a layer of trust which can be broken.
Well said. After I did some digging on the whole situation, I decided to completely remove Damus relays from my network. I don't want to trust my data and information flow to a company run by a loose cannon who will dox people and call it 'censorship resistance'.
Hmmm.. Ok. Sure.
You've obviously never heard of international legal disputes.
It isn't hard to engage a local lawyer to represent you in another jurisdiction. Not cheap, but also not hard.
Personal annotations aside, that might have been Grinder's perception.
It’s probably gonna stay that way too
I have heard of them, they are ineffectual. Default judgment in this matter would have no enforceable consequences.
Yeah lol
That's not at all true, and I will state this as an unfortunate side effect of the intrusion or "the state" into everything.
Morals aren't governed by state law. Doxxing someone is wrong in nearly all cases. That's not something codified into most laws, but it still doesn't make it right.
State laws often carry burdens that most aren't aware of. Libel is a civil matter. There are fairly well established precedents for handling this sort of thing. It is harder to pursue given the nature of the locations (or lack of knowledge of those locations) of certain parties.
Nope. I don't think I will. 😁
Fine. I'll concede that technically you are correct about never (though there's a case I can build for the use of it etymologically but that's just being pedantic and who needs that?).
You're right about data. You're also right about trust.
That's the whole issue. Will casually broke that trust. He should not have, and he did. For better or worse, Will has enjoyed a position of prominence in the wider nostr community, mostly through his own competence as a dev. However recently he has broken several trusts without any concern for the impact that has. That is behavior that is unacceptable and should not be tolerated by any pleb.
Sending an email will always be equal to sending a post card unless you use e2e using PGP or S/MIME. Everything else is just some legal policy or an expectation to rely on. Once you cross your own country's legal boundaries, it'll get difficult to enforce any of that so you're basically left with hoping that the recipient will treat your report the way you expect them to. Expecting any sort of privacy using a medium that's cleartext by design is an obvious mistake to make.
I get you're explicitly speaking from your perspective of a relay runner but it's been quite common for such requests to be shared with the party getting reported.
I've been following both Will and Grinder and I have nothing against any of them, so I'll just keep on doing so.
> He is doing this because he seems himself as The Next Elon [...]
You lost me here. Seems like you're using this opportunity to attack someone you don't seem to like all too much while signalling your own values that you consider to be superior.
I dunno. I'm just highly annoyed at Will. Not that it matters much, but, I don't find what he did and how he's responded to criticism of his actions acceptable.
👍
Probably. It is a mess, for sure
done
I can't believe you zapped Will's bullshit
get your priorities straight.
Yup, hes one of the few good devs left over here. Sorry if the basic logic involved with understanding the situation is too much for you. Dont want your name out? Dont include it in a mass email to threaten client developers. Some people need parents
I guess I have a different perspective on trust. I never start with a trust assumption even if they are respected or an authority. I understand some/many people have the opposite approach. This does seem to burn them often which is why I have my approach.
I do however conceptually respect transparency of "Publishing all takedown requests" as a way to at least notify those using his relay of attempts at censorship.
It is unfortunate for Grinder that he made a privacy mistake. (I have nothing against him at all) But I find a takedown request (using the state to get what you want) personally more unacceptable.
Difference of opinion perhaps. But, I really respect your approach to discussing it. No ill will toward you at all.
The fact that Grinder is an idiot doesn't make what Will did okay.
and it makes you an idiot for defending him.
And I think youre the idiot
Funny how perspective works
Same! You're someone I can respect even if I disagree on some points. I want to discuss this in public so people know what to expect.
So far:
Grinder made a decision that most here wouldn't have.
Will made it worse.
Fuckstr isn't taking any of this seriously so I am just highly doubting his allegations.
Question your judgement if you think he is one of the few good devs left. He is a piece of shit human that builds mediocre products
Damus was the first client I tried…it took 6 months of frustration with his shitty app and a move over to primal to actually adopt nostr
Meanwhile he bitches and complains and throws feces at his competition, whines about funding in opensource and then doxxes users. Probably should leave this last piece out but he is also going to marry a stripper so I question his morals also 🤣
I don’t agree with @TheGrinder and his email (could just block the troll) but he did not deserved to be doxxed.
You could be a lot smarter than I am but I don’t see the relevance in your reply. Whose pet do you think I am?
Just an objective observer here. If anything this would be a perfect meme for you in relation to being will’s little bitch
I think I agree on all accounts.
But a person doing the wrong thing is still always in the wrong. I hate using the phrase victim blaming, but I do see it happen so often even in the smallest cases. Yes I live my life low trust as well, but it's exhausting and kind of unhealthy to your personal growth. You have to trust people to survive, you get unlucky sometimes. People want to feel safe outside their community and protected from bad people doing bad things. But I also understand the reality is no one can protect you, privacy is the toothpaste you can't put back in the tube.
Life is full of that balance. Some have more stake in their online identity than others.
I think naivete is a side effect of openness to opportunity.
These trolls don't get that a lot of us actually know each other, personally.
Some people would zap a car crash.
some people never learned basic manners and social comportment
(and it shows)
It is.
Well, yeah. They don't have IRL friends or any friends.
Maintaining a certain level of vigilance on a daily basis can prove to be very stressful for too many, too often. Just the way it is.
And you think you guys have that? 🤣 my hostility is reacting to your hostility, you people really have zero understanding of the real world and its wild
100%
The thing is, that it's okay to maintain a certain level of openness to opportunity, but people, too often, fully or mostly abandon the necessary amount of caution needed to make rational and practical decisions.
we're not on here trying to defend doxing other nostriches.
so yes, as i said, you should get your priorities straight.
Yup. But having spent time closed off, I find that the temporary pain of openness to be much less bad than the stress of that line of vigilance.
Good idea. I will remove Damus from the streams.
True and they sometimes will have to face the consequences of doing so. And as a hopefully good and respectful community of human beings some take responsibility to protect that. I'm well versed in gospel quotes, but I'm sure there is one that applies.
I personally think it's a helpful, innocent, and honest quality, it's my responsibility to protect that when I can.
*not well versed in quotes* :)
Never did.
Grinder could have stayed anon and had his attorney send the letter.
Yup. I don't think that was the smortest thing to do, but.... The greater ick comes from fuckstr and Will.
Government takedown requests should be spread far and wide.
Sure. But don't doxx people. That's wrong
People is one thing, government entities are another.
Yes. Sure.
That IS a good idea🤔.
Mental gymnastics
No.
How is this even doxxing?
The guy wrote his own name in the email he sent.
That's not doxxing.
JB55 broke no laws and put in absolutely no effort to get the retards identity.
yes i published it before i even realized who sent it as he only signed with his nostr name at the bottom. i publish any takedown notice unredacted for transparency.
then i got attacked as an “evil doxer” 🙄
Incompetent and/or careless.
The grinder's name is PII. Revealing that carelessly is still doxxing. It's pretty simple.
Why would it be dangerous for the average user? Just don't link your real name to it.
Read like one to me. Its a takedown request with a lawyer in the bcc. That reads like a "Do this or we will sue".