Replies (124)
"We've allowed" is key there. The one who allowed them in is duty bound to vet them prior to letting them in, or give due process when unallowing them. The money can be found/printed if required.
It's not acceptable to deport the wrong people accidentally, it's like fishing using a bottom trawl.
“The compromise is some innocent people will be wronged” … i’m gonna hope you misspoke here because if not, fucking gross dude.
Same energy as “privacy tools should be banned so we can better catch criminals, some innocent people will be wronged but overall it will decrease crime”.
Completely agree. Wanted to zap you but you don't have a wallet yet so just liked and replied to say so.
Would you keep that same energy if you were deported?
Can't get deported if you never enter a country illegally...
Blackstone's Ratio: it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.
Peter Todd
Due process costs money, a lot of money.
El Salvador had to compromise on due process when they rounded up the gang members. When 1% of your population are murderous , violent, criminals who need to be locked up, there simply aren't enough judges or lawyers to give everyone full due process.
The West faces the exact same problem with illegals. We've allowed in literally tens of millions of violent, unproductive, people who need to be forced out, and fast. There aren't enough judges or lawyers on the planet to give every one of those people trials.
The compromise is some innocent people will be wronged. But overall it's the right compromise to make. Fighting violence and criminality at this scale is closer to fighting a war than it is a policing action.
View quoted note →
“The money can be found/printed if required.”
Nonsense. Money isn't magic. There just aren't enough judges and lawyers out there to make it happen. Printing unlimited money would not change that.
The fact is _all_ systems make mistakes. Due process doesn't entirely stop innocent people from being harmed either.
I've spent literally more hours than I can count contemplating this including El Salvador, the US, and the world. When considering the whole ball of wax (I'm a beekeeper), it's extremely difficult to figure out the perfect solution. It's not just black and white. I honestly understand what Peter and Vitor are saying and sympathize with both. Peter has a point with violent people, gangs, etcetera but Vitor also has a point. Lack of due process is a very slippery slope. It leads to bad things also. In El Salvador, Bukele is becoming a dictator, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Somehow the solution cannot lead to a dictator. Bitcoin will help fix some but not all of our problems. It gives people sound money but doesn't stop violent bad people.
Unrelated, penalties against white collar criminals who defraud people out of millions need to be much stiffer.
OK, I have a headache again from contemplation. I need a Gummi. Somebody let me know when you have it all figured out. I'll be relieved if it's a solution that makes sense to me. ☮️ 💜🫂
View quoted note →They are not citizens...they have no rights!
But they are humans, and humans have rights.
Bullshit. Due process is a requirement in this country. Even if you killed other people, you are still innocent until proven in court. The fact that it is expensive is the government of own fault.
idgaf, just tell your nephews to leave kids alone
There are a lot of rapists in this country Peter, a huge backlog of untested rape kits. Costs a lot of money to investigate and test dna.
Maybe we should just kill or castrate alleged rapists without due process.
How would you feel about that, I wonder?
coming from someone who praised those signing bombs to be dropped on ukraine/russia.
Due process would minimise the risk. Money can and does get printed. Executive orders can and do redirect it. So it's possible.
A "shoot first and asking questions later" approach seems a tad antiquated.
Or "guilty until proven innocent".
Think about the energy required to undo the harm done to one person getting mistakenly deported. The legal battles, lawsuits etc. Suddenly due process makes more sense.
Disturbing statement.
Anyone who can't forcefully resist can be deported ("sent away from the ports") to anywhere at any time for any reason.
The only thing that prevents that is morality & law. Both may be lacking in the case of this administration.
I worry where this thinking leads. We certainly fuck up due process a lot, and yet due process is a fundamental western value. If we we just toss it whenever its convenient, and consistently do so, at what point do we cease being the West?
Tens of millions? Citation?
Is it the immigrants fault that the US had an open border policy?
These immigrant’s transit was funded by NGOs they were ignorant to the process?
You seem happy to skip on recompense from them (the NGOs)?
Why should tax payers flip the bill at this point. Close the border and move on.
If the US hadn't had that policy they wouldn't even be here. So returning them is just getting back to the status quo.
The _lack_ of consequence is one reason why this is acceptable: in most of these removal cases the US is _not_ punishing the person being removed in any meaningful way. They're just being returned to where they came from.
Nope. The US has different due process standards for all kinds of different situations. This is a situation where the scale of the problem is so huge that due process standards simply have to be diminished.
All sane, non-suicidal, societies do this. That's why pretty much every country has a martial law mechanism. Indeed, I'm in Kyiv at the moment, and subject to martial law. One of the reasons why I can (relatively) safely be here is because normal standards of due process have been diminished.
Dont confuse war time with peace time.
The US does not have a society threatening problem with rape; the US did have a (somewhat) society threatening problem with false rape allegations, and I've personally been a victim of that.
The UK on the other hand does have a society threatening problem with with Muslim rape gangs (mainly Pakistani). In _that_ case, yes, it absolutely would be justified to reduce standards of due process to get the Muslims perpetrating that crime out of the UK. Although equally, the UK doesn't actually need to reduce due process standards by much to solve the problem: court cases have established beyond a reasonable doubt that a remarkably high percentage of the Pakistani Muslim population are rapists.
Good points. Hard to argue with the practical issues of scale
It's a war. Obviously the people dropping bombs on Russians are stopping innocent people from dying.
Horrible take for someone who cares about freedom. The country with the international reserve currency and military bases around the world can't afford due process? No. It's a matter of priorities. There's always enough money for bombing people around the world it seems, just not enough for due process.
Trump is a man of his word, this is what he ran on and he is delivering.
I agree due process is not possible.
Even if it was our courts SUCK!
That’s a lotta words to just admit you don’t give a fuck unless it’s your own ass on the line.
Dunno if you've noticed but the US is in debt...
And lately, who are they bombing? The Houthies clearly deserve it. If anything, the US is making the mistake of spending too much money on carefully targeted attacks rather than just wiping out the Houthies cheaply.
As I said, the scale of the illegal/undesirable immigration problem in the west is such that it's closer to war than a pure policing operation.
Tens of millions of people have been allowed in who need to be deported.
The fact we put anyone in jail, or deport anyone at all, is obviously a compromise because any legal system will make mistakes. You're just being absolutist in a ridiculous, obviously counterproductive way.
Hmm. Yes. But flooding a country with foreigners, in order to undermine the native population, is a form of asymmetric warfare waged by the government upon the citizenry.
I suspect many Americans consider themselves to be in a civil war, and the mass migration is part of that. That means the migrants are part of a military conflict and fair game.
I'm a Canadian, and visit the US and EU often, so wrongful deportation does affect me.
“it’s an emergency so fuck civil liberties and the bill of rights” was how the government justified 6102
Hell, in a different context flooding countries with foreigners would (quite rightfully) be considered a form of genocide. It's well accepted in international law that trying to dilute a native population out of existence via immigration is genocide. Tibet (Han migration) and occupied Ukraine (Russians) both being recent examples.
There are certainly people in western countries whose hatred of white people is sufficiently nutty they their goal with unrestricted immigration is to genocide the white population out of existence (also, Jewish and Asian populations in some cases).
Still, this is not war. You cant just make up a war on your mind to justify your actions.
It's also how the government justified WW2. And fighting the Nazis was the correct thing to do.
I'm welcome to make the argument that it's an emergency. As are politicians... Which is exactly what is happening.
Who is the US bombing? You're trolling right? US money and weapons in Ukraine, causing a genocide in Gaza, bombing the Houthis who represent ZERO national security threat to the US, just for starters "lately". Go back a few years and you have the destruction of Libya, Afghanistan, Irak (500,000 dead iraki children, "it was worth it"-Albraith), and more.
The profile says Peter Todd but I'm starting to think I've been had. It can't be Peter Todd, the bitcoin developer.
Ron Paul Rips Government in Last House Speech
'Our Constitution ... has failed,' said the libertarian in likely his last speech from the House floor.
By Kenneth T. Walsh, Nov. 15, 2012, at 8:06 a.m.
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/ken-walshs-washington/2012/11/15/ron-paul-rips-government-in-last-house-speech
"Our Constitution, which was intended to limit government power and abuse, has failed," the Texas Republican said in what he described as probably his last speech on the House floor before he retires this year. "The founders warned that a free society depends on a virtuous and moral people. The current crisis reflects that their concerns were justified."
"All branches of our government today are controlled by individuals who use their power to undermine liberty and enhance the welfare/warfare state, and frequently their own wealth and power," Paul said.
He added: "If it's not accepted that big government, fiat money, ignoring liberty, central economic planning, welfarism, and warfarism caused our crisis, we can expect a continuous and dangerous march toward corporatism and even fascism with even more loss of our liberties."
Emergencies are not wars. Made up emergencies are also not emergencies. Wasn't COVID bad enough? You want another "emergency"?
I doubt, that this aproach of utalitarianism will lead us to more free society. Maby it can be a first step out of a pure gang controlled system as they have had it in el Salvador.
But since in the US there is a working juristic system, there is no advantage in getting a more just system through ignoring juristic decision.
Since without no doubt, a system where anyone can be putten to prison without a sentence, no one is free. So defnitly the US is not winning any freedom, when judges are disrespected by the president. The same as the freedom of speech is not improved, when members of the press are defamed for asking questions.
"US money and weapons in Ukraine"
..which is obviously preventing a genocide, by Russia, of Ukrainians. Just the other day Russia intentionally massacred dozens of Ukrainian civilians with two ballistic missile strikes to central Sumy, right when be streets would be busiest due to a Christian holiday. And the second missile was a few minutes later, to try to kill rescuers.
If you can't accept that talking to you is pointless because you're either evil or delusional.
But you do know, that it is not exclusively people from el salvador, that get deported to prisons in el salvador?
Sorry to steal this illusion. It is not about deporting people back to their country.
If you don't see the role that the US and Europe had in causing this war, talking to you is indeed pointless.
Find an example of someone _not_ from El Salvador who was deported to El Salvador. I haven't actually found one yet – there's been claims. But they turn out to be El Salvadorans when their background is investigated more fully.
There probably will be the occasional mistake. But that isn't proving to be very common.
You’re making a great case for forced vaccinations
Force vaccinations would be acceptable if the vaccines actually worked and the disease was actually an existential threat to society. COVID failed that test on both counts.
Not all emergencies are wars, but all wars are emergencies.
I would posit that COVID was an emergency, but the response was too draconian. Almost comical, in its ad nauseum absurdity. I feel the same way about remigration, but the side willing to listen to me complain about respecting due process was the same side ignoring me about securing the borders.
Either you have sensible laws and respect them, or you don't.
I no longer expect either the German or American governments to have sensible laws and respect them, so I'm increasingly indifferent to it all. I still have an opinion, but I'm all outraged-out and I'm hardly paying attention.
And I strongly suspect I'm not alone in that.
I find it hard to believe that you don’t see the problem in the subjectiveness in defining an “emergency” for the sake of revoking civil rights.
But you know that this is mostly pure populism. Almost no good numbers to show a real problem. There is more problems within your mind, then there is problems caused by migration. Its called populism. Only because many people say migration is problematic, does not actually make it problematic.
COVID at the beginning was a potential emergency. But we should have figured out quickly from the overwhelming scientific evidence that it wasn't actually an emergency, and lifted all restrictions.
Instead, we artificially turned it into an emergency by fucking up society – and the medical system – for political reasons.
Getting the psychopaths responsible for this out of society is it self an emergency. Because they're probably going to do it again; they already tried to before with the H1N1 fraud.
"populism" 😂
The facts are they the west is experiencing dramatic increases in crime in many locations because of terrible immigration policies. Many classes of non-(white/asian/Jewish) immigrants are _far_ more violent than the native populations. Those people damn well should be forced out.
Furthermore, I think that obstracizing and demonizing Catholic conservatives, like myself, for nearly a decade, was a terrible own-goal for the liberal left. Those political chickens are coming home to roost, now. We're naturally more center-right, and we've always been willing to listen, but we got pushed away.
I have not forgotten that I was banned from Twitter, twice, nearly lost my employment and was reported to government panels, for saying that there are two biological sexes and that abortion stops a beating heart.
I am no longer angry, but I am wary.
Also, there are only two biological sexes and abortion stops a beating heart. Thank God for Nostr.
Do you realise that you are using Nazi's arguments, right?
🙄
Yes, I'm glad the FDP was still in government, at the time.
I think Trump is very clear with his intentions. No misunderstanding. He is willing to deport US citizen to the prisons of el salvador. Due to the reality, that court decisions are not respected, what do you need to hear more to see the problem?
Vitor and I say the current president is activly working to take apart the US democracy. Can you agree with this claim? And do you defend this destruction too? Can you read yourself how your words are defending authoritarian regimes for their methods in general?
Yes I dfnitly agree pushing out criminals by their second overstepping. And then even when their home country is violating human rights and they have to fear death.
All with you. But for this we have all capabilities within normal law and order. The only missing part would be creating the laws for this.
Thanks. Since this is forcing the monopoly of power for proper legitimation. Since when the power monopoly of the state is not legitimized, through proportionality and reducing harm, how would this power be just?
Are you really this dumb? Bitcoiners are really this dumb? Fortunately Bitcoin is smarter than bitcoiners
The US admitted they made an error when they sent this guy. If he truly was a gang member, why say it was an error and would they not have also presented some MS13 evidence in their multiple court hearings?
I also question whether criminals at this level are holding down full time job to support their families.
Los Angeles Times
About 90% of migrants sent to El Salvador lacked U.S. criminal record
The reality is that of 238 migrants expelled to the Central American country, just a small fraction had ever been charged with serious crimes in th...
Really? Here it is actually proven to be very common. 90% of expelled people have no criminal record in the US. People are from Venezuela and El Salvador. In which part is there any mention about your occasional mistake? It is rather occasionally there is someone expelled for wrong doing.
I’d like to think that El Salvador has some background info on this person since he is a citizen of El Salvador Hopefully they take this international attention to look into these claims.
I’m not absolutist, I’d rather the compromise be “the legal system made a mistake” than what you’re advocating for which is bypassing the legal system entirely.
If the legal system makes a mistake there is at least a path to fixing the mistake. If there aren’t enough judges or lawyers and it takes too long, the legal system needs to be changed.
Its like you’re creating different classes of people. Some people have rights, others don’t?
Rounding up and deporting people en masse seems like a very dangerous precedent to set. Hopefully the next administration doesn’t decide you and I are environmental terrorists because we use bitcoin, and we belong in a foreign prison.
He was already cleared of gang accusations in US court a few years ago and that is why he was allowed to stay. You seem to be saying it is acceptable to contract out US democracy.
Understood,It seems like I don’t have the facts. So he was in court a few years ago for something, was cleared of being in a gang and then allowed to stay in the US on some type of visa or asylum request? He was then detained by ICE I’m guessing and deported with his old gang members who he had no affiliation with. I’m not for contracting out US democracy.
We are all immigrants.
Not all of us. nevent1qqsv28m6mnl5j7utwzhwhp8tj2992xuxt7j4ckynm2tj2zmead73h4gppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzpd7063e0lyp5g8kxe42mk5r0jazzzxnwdrjj2fw5y3z3dx76q066qvzqqqqqqym8f7yl
"Oh no! I didn't think the leopards would eat MY face!"
First they came for the immigrants...
Reports are he never was a gang member and fled El Salvador originally as a teen to avoid being recruited into a gang. It is my understanding he was in US court a few years ago not because he got into trouble, but to establish his right to remain in the US ad someone with no status.
We can print as much as we need to ensure rights aren't violated right?
This wasn’t about entering illegally. It’s about being deported without proper cause.
Is coming in illegally not proper cause to report someone? Isn't that inferred in the "illegal" part...
You’re not understanding. My response was due to the fact that Peter was saying, even if a few people who were here legally were deported it’s fine because the illegals are being deported. I asked him if he would keep that same energy if he was deported after being here legally.
No of course not. Nor would you have the same energy if it was a family member or friend. But that's just a bias.
Agreed. That’s the point I was trying to make. Peter’s okay with legal getting deported.
we both know white people like us ain’t the ones that gotta worry about deportation.
yet.
Asking for due process in this case is just asking for a way to find some legal trickery to get away with law.
More immigrants = more violence and crime. This is just a fact, in Europe.
Meanwhile in real life those gangsters are actually being brainwashed to create terrorists to be used against other countries..
Oh no it's just a coincidence that Syria is full of tatted up Hispanics now
So a group of pedophiles told you that everyone who criticise israel are ms13??
🤔Hmm now I wonder who benefits from you believing that..
Always the ones you most expect eh
They are deporting white USA born American citizens for criticising zionism
Imagine if most massacres were caused by foreigners. Good grief. That's literally a military invasion. I hope it never comes to that.
And I don't think you've done much analysis of any correlation between lack of gun violence and restrictive gun laws. The men aren't shooting each other, in places like Baltimore (where my family is from), because they don't hang up enough "gun free zone" signs, or something.
This would be a reasonable trade-off if, even a mistake made is discovered, it is quickly corrected, but that is not the case here, and this unwillingness to correct the mistake undermines your argument for reasonableness, and results in the opposite effect, and unwillingness to even consider reasonable enforcement.
All the gun idea is a completely wrong image of human, that all is based on fear. But I let you live in this nightmare, when it is what you prefer. Just do not lie and say you feel sorry about children shooting others, while defending gun laws.
Yeah, and if you look at where the gun violence in Maryland is the worst, it's in the most tyrannical Democrat areas. Basically, Baltimore and eastern D.C., near where I used to live.
Just gang-bangers everywhere, and lots of laws that they just completely ignore. They'd have shootouts at our local shopping mall, and stuff. Go to a steakhouse and get capped by some nutjob who's been hitting his own stash too hard.
Get tired of people who don't know what the hood is like, lecturing me on violence.
Remember the DC Sniper? Dude was literally driving around our neighborhood.
You are not ready for reality, fr.
Huh? I was agreeing with you.
I'm fine with it.
Won't solve what's wrong with that area, tho. Marriage rate is abysmally low. Any area without a majority of the adult men being husbands and living at home with their children, will eventually degrade.
That's what did us in. All of the married black people (including myself) moved further out, and took civilization with them. That's why the neighborhoods around those areas are peaceful and have good schools and clean streets, but you drive 15 minutes over and you're in The Hell That Liberals Wrought.
That's why I'm not a liberal. Grew up staring at that dichotomy and I'm just going to believe my lying eyes on this one.
Maby to help you. Just watch who is defunding police training. Those are the political weaknes. Defnitly, there is a lack of protocols or enforcing of protocols, when criminals are not cought or corruption is able to spread. Burocracy is consitant way to fight those problems. And higher police funds, to allow more policemen, to follow their duties. It is quiet simple, isn't it?
I think the thing that confuses the debate and makes the statistics seem weird is that nobody tracks the order things happen in.
Step 1: working-class black people are married and poor, but peaceful and gainfully employed
Step 2: some working-class black people gain higher qualifications and their pay increases. They start organizing and demanding equal pay. They're going middle-class.
Step 3: white employers get upset, that black people want to get paid as much as white people, so they mass-import a bunch of poor, underqualified foreigners, to break the strikes and drive wages down
Step 4: black men are increasingly unemployed or paid starvation wages, black women stop marrying them or file for divorce and marry the state
Step 5: black area full of fatherless children, organizing into gangs
Step 6: shoot outs go crazy, so gun laws are enacted, but don't help much
Step 7: rich white people (the same ones who destroyed the employment market for black men because they're actually a bunch of greedy, lazy fucks who like having a subservient underclass) show up and demand gun laws to stop the shooting and raise the amount of welfare that black women get as a reward for being a Baby Mama because They Care About The Children.
Places with high marriage rates and low male unemployment don't need those gun laws because they don't have the fatherless children, who run around shooting people for sport.
Nobody promoting tighter gun laws ever mentions that black men from such neighborhoods are safer fighting as soldiers overseas in war zones, than staying in those neighborhoods.
Is that because the war zone is a gun-free zone?
Black people legit join the military to escape violence.
as always, your views are thought provoking
That's not surprising at all considering the type of wars the US has fought lately. In most military positions your chance of dying is nearly zero, even during war. Training is actually more dangerous than deployment in a lot of cases.
It'd be very different in a different context...
Yes, it goes without saying that the people who destroyed Black America and unleashed death rates higher than hot wars and communist gulags aren't Trad Catholics, or something.
The road to hell has been paved by secular, liberal do-gooders, who are trying to build a utopia on Earth because they think there is no Heaven.
But I'm done discussing this. It upsets me too much.
They stir up trouble to increase emigration.
Are they in dangour because a lack of guns or because of unjust racial profiling and racism within and without police?
Tell me more. I live in reality my whole life. It's kind of a stupid expression from your side in the first place. There is no live outside reality, fr.
Please don’t kill me 😅
Tell me you are worried that your servants will get too expensive and your retirement will be delayed, without telling me.
I'm sure you have 18 kids, since you are so worried about sustainable demographics. Amiright?
I do not think my offspring can just be replaced by whomever from wherever, while achieving the same result. I pity anyone who has such a lack of self-esteem that they think their own parental influence and the environment they helped create and sustain has no positive effect at all.
And I don't care, if you think we are racist and uneducated. You'll have to get up earlier, to make me care about your opinion of me.
They are mostly in danger from each other.
Why would your statement be true? Is there some logic? Or is this a special occurance, that is unique to people with black skin? To me this seems quiete stupid to state, that there is a causal connection between color of skin and behaviour.
It's not because of the color of their skin. Why would you think that?
Since the conversation is about black men. So what else are you refering when you say "they are mostly in danger from each other."?
No, we are not one.
1. The insurance systems are broke and will soon disappear.
2. I have two adult children.
3. I am a migrant.
4. I am not an atheist.
Yes, they shoot each other.
So educate me which liberties are god given. I am an atheist but happy to learn from an educated believer as you claim to be.
Who is them? How you know if you are part of them, those or the others?
You ar messing up a bunch of stuff. The same group of people can not replace you while being less educated. So when you get some order in your arguments I can maby understand what you want to say.
Currently you give migrants a whole bunch of attributes, that contradict. Makes it hard to follow your thoughts. You are from germany I assume.
Taxing system defnitly can be considered problematic in germany. The gap from a low payed job to living from state welfare is small. And it should never be, that a Person that stands up and goes to creat some value gets less or just the same as an other person, that stays at home.
There needs to be a motivator to do something. There we can probably agree, that there are problems pendent to solve in germany. I would not claim that there are no problems. I just see no good reason to be upset for them to exist. They have to be solved and this is all.
They are in danger from people in their own communities. Yes, those places are predominantly black, but no, being black does not predispose you to killing people.
I was mainly replying because of the tired narrative that cops are just out racially profiling people and hunting black people down to extinction levels and that cops apparently are all racists. I'm not saying that has never happened, just that that is not what people in black communities are in most danger of.
Read the Constitution.
Is this satire? The constitution has no connection with religion or god. Be consistent in something.
You wrote quiet a lot. But no attempt to answer my question. What are the god given liberties?
The fact that you don't even understand that basic concept made me too bored to continue the conversation.
Do your own research.
I do not believe in god. So when you do not understand the concepts you mention, my research can not change this. I was trying to understand your point. But then there is no point.
They can't handle the highest level of abstraction, I suppose. Probably why physicists are both the smartest scientists, on average, and the most philosophically/theologically inclined.
That is what I mean. You don't need to believe in God in order to understand the significance of the concept of liberties that are God-given, as that is the only effective deliminator between freedoms and privileges.
But you don't even understand that.
Tiresome. Conversation over.
Never mind just saw your post from two days ago:
Peter Todd
Due process costs money, a lot of money.
El Salvador had to compromise on due process when they rounded up the gang members. When 1% of your population are murderous , violent, criminals who need to be locked up, there simply aren't enough judges or lawyers to give everyone full due process.
The West faces the exact same problem with illegals. We've allowed in literally tens of millions of violent, unproductive, people who need to be forced out, and fast. There aren't enough judges or lawyers on the planet to give every one of those people trials.
The compromise is some innocent people will be wronged. But overall it's the right compromise to make. Fighting violence and criminality at this scale is closer to fighting a war than it is a policing action.
View quoted note →
Awful white of you
Coming from Mr Collateral Damage Todd, this would be expected of you.
Collectivist mindrot.
