Replies (99)
so now the base layer is "settlement" and users can have ecash mints built on LN.
instead of just having bitcoin L1 be a MoE and 4 MB blocks.
yay
so much winning 🙄
we could have proper 4mb blocks.
"OMG but data centers and ETH tho" is obviously stupid 6 yrs later.
we just don't need them now because real adoption stalled and nobody uses Bitcoin.
I'm was surprised to see some of the people that were using those tactics and terminology.
Looked like willing participants to a psyop attack against bitcoin, to me.
Don't worry Hanshan. We have Bitcoin Visa cards now. Or better yet, Bitcoin backed loans. We stay winning.
Fun, inconvenient fact: larger OP_RETURN data payloads result in smaller blocks.
thank goodness the small-blockers insisted you had to be able run nodes on an Rpi in African villages!
65,000 transactions per second (*upper limit - Visa network)
make that work on L1, validate it in seconds without 0 confs.
Allow me the freedom to sync my node so I don't have to trust a 3rd party to verify my full stack.
btw I don't have a data centre, mega watts of power, unlimited memory for storage or a Gb uplink. Just a humble pleb.
Your turn...
wHaT aBOuT ViSA durrr
we don't have to do Visa numbers today.
what happened to small pragmatic improvements in software based on actual user need?
Propagating garbage all over the network in a way that prevents people from actually using a monetary network to send money is not the path to smaller blocks that any sane person should support.
That's like saying, if you put a methadone clinic next to my house I will get robbed less by drug addicts.
I thought that OP_RETURN didn't go into the UTXO set, resulting in less data?
yeah let's enshrine the worlds 3$ ice cream purchases in a global ledger, replicated across 100'000 s of nodes, storing it forevermore
not all problems require the same solution
I just used it today....
yes. at least until it get going.
This reply has been brought to you by Citrea. A cutting edge bitcoin rollup to bring all of your favorite smart contracts to bitcoin!! What's not to love? 😂 All we require is a large amount of data storage in Op Return. Stop asking so many questions plebs!!
Hundred Percent
Im starting to think you just like getting shit on
💯
Name one prominent small blocker from the block size war era besides Luke who's now in favour of BIP110?
Well as long as someone got something right once, that means you should listen to them now.
I wonder what Michael Burry thinks about bitcoin...
Indeed Bitcoin is money not data storage. It's simple and clear. Run Knots + BIP110
That is now essentially dead with core v30
The old GMax, before he was skin suited.
I’m going to assume you’re trolling. Most spammers don’t use OP_RETURN because they get a 75% discount if they embed their spam using SegWit. OP_RETURN is about VC-backed spammers who want to “comply” with the “mainstream BTC standards” so their investors don’t get spooked. E.g. Citrea that is VC-backed by Lopp.
It's a free market for block space. Nobody is prevented from bidding for block space. Garbage is low value by definition and easily outbid.
if these people care so much about the monetary usage why does the mempool look like this? y'all need to stop LARPing and transact, the spam problem sorts itself out if that happens as you pointed out
Unfortunately this is a natural result of several dominant narratives like "never spend your bitcoin" and "ETFs are safer than self custody."
Adoption occurs in steps. Store of value is first. Most people have to want a thing before it can become a means of exchange because people don't exchange for things they don't want. Then once everyone trades with it, it can become a unit of account.
It's my node, I don't have to relay garbage & I don't have to include it in blocks that I mine. I also don't have to update to code that invites more of what I don't want or that prevents me from trying to exclude it.
I am not really in favor of bip110, I prefer the progress that was being made with filters & Knots & DATUM. But most of the OG bitcoiners I know are opposed to spam. It's actually ONLY people prominent enough to have been captured in some form or fashion that seem to be suddenly in support of spam & they only seem to make stupid arguments from authority & try to censor people who disagree with them.
nope
garbage should be cleaned up before it rots
low value with high cost
Yes most OG Bitcoiners are against arbitrary data storage on Bitcoin. That’s why we fought to keep blocks small. F(r)ee market economics should do the rest in an open, permissionless and censorship resistant system.
Indeed, you're free to do all those things ☺️
Maybe. The steps to adoption have been debated since Bitcoin's inception. Narratives shift over the cycles and no one really knows what will end up as the dominant use case.
Only way to find out is to wait and see.
Just like OP_RETURN isn’t fatal #bip110 is pretty benign. By siding with Bip110 you send a signal. Agains corruption. About the resilience of Bitcoin. Think of it as a test. Next time the Core Devs will kill Bitcoin.
Does knots and/or bip 110 reduce the amount of disk space required to run a node? Does core 30 increase it?
What I described are just the basic & rather self evident steps of something becoming money. This is most likely going to take more than a generation (if people can refrian from screwing it up).
That's why it is SO important to recognize the *sensitive dependence on initial conditions* and not nudge things in the wrong direction.
We cannot keep it open & censorship resistent if devs decide the rules in a top down fashion & remove decentralized ways for nodes to set policy. All while openly communicating hostility toward a major portion of the user base.
Devs can't do that.
They can only release free and open source software that users can then voluntarily decide to run-- or not.
it's been dead for years now.
Knots proponents don't have any more of a vision for Bitcoin than core does.
it's just fighting over the scraps of an already hijacked network.
Go buy some b cash if you actually think bitcoin is the hijacked coin…
obviously i have been buying monero for years.
and yes, theres a decent argument for the "hijacked" framing the situation.
I'm sympathetic that people want an SOV to store their wealth, I do to.
but abstracting Bitcoin into higher layers that are inevitably more centralized and kissing Wall Street ass for NGU is a guarantee of regulatory capture.
user utility has to be the fundamental use case.
You complain so much about usability when there are plenty of people on here that use bitcoin daily without any issue…
Bitcoin is our only chance to fix the money and it may require monero.
Many of us on here have indicated multiple times that we have no issue with monero but just have no interest or need to use it. Monero bros are insufferable though
Meanwhile you are out here spreading Roger ver’s bullshit…
The only person mentioning Monero in this thread is you.
so afaict your argument is " Bitcoin works just fine for me. we should just ossify here. "
which is a valid opinion people can have.
You have to be kidding me, right?
Go re-read the first line to your response to my post where there was zero mention of monero.
You were the one who referenced monero not me sir. The fact that you did not even realize it exhibits your cognitive dissonance and obsession with pushing your privacy shitcoin while undermining bitcoin
sigh
ok man your right, i said "monero" first
the point was, *you're the one dragging other coins into the conversation.
a conversation about Bitcoin trade-offs.
it wasn't like I was just looking for the opportunity to talk about it, YOU brought it up.
Do you even believe your own bullshit at this point? 🤣
You claimed bitcoin was hijacked…you weren’t just “discussing bitcoin trade-offs”
I suggested you buy the coin that you think is not hijacked instead of continuing to shit on bitcoin
And I do not believe bitcoin should ossify but also do not think there is any rush to make drastic changes anytime soon. Meanwhile you consistently claim bitcoin is failing or has already failed or was hijacked which is blatantly incorrect
You are arguing that bitcoin failed because it didn’t increase its block size…it did actually increase block size since inception so you are wrong there and I maybe would have a different opinion if blocks were actually full and the mempool wasn’t a ghost town.
Same reason I think the knots people are not serious when they complain about spam when bitcoin has a mechanism to fight spam already (I.e., the fee market)
I didn't say any of that stuff,
but have fun arguing with yourself I guess.
what happened is that the small block narrative took hold,
the narrative that you and every maxi for the last many years are so intense about promoting,
and everybody pushed to move actual transactions to lightning
and so now yes, we don't need a block size increase.
because nobody uses Bitcoin.
and saying so is certainly " discussing Bitcoin trade-offs "
The trade-offs of spending the last many years intentionally constricting L1 size, shitty UX and instead promoting usage as an institutional SOV.
except for the "Bitcoin is failing" part
I'm DEFINITELY saying that.
Why is bitcoin failing? Pretty sure one of your arguments is spreading Roger ver’s bullshit that bitcoin got hijacked and we need to increase block size lol
I was also a small blocker back in the day.
in retrospect, enshrining as-small-as-possible-blocksize-forever as Gospel and trying to move everything onto LN immediately was a mistake. The correct thing to do would be to scale as much as possible on the decentralized L1 and only start moving to higher layers when usage makes it necessary.
small, interative, pragmatic changes.
which require an actual governance model.
not decentralization theater, which is what we have now.
and yes, these are both points that Roger got right in his book.
but now it's a moot point. Bitcoin is never going to change because it has no governance model and everybody involved is either incentivized towards ossification or has drunk the Kool-Aid and thinks "something something Trojan horse, Bitcoin is inevitable"
so yeah, it will be abstracted into higher, inflationary layers and that's what users will interact with.
much winning 🙄
we will win
Prominent as in appeal to authority? Ans I thought Bitcoin was about decentralization?
If Roger was so right why hasn’t anyone adopted b cash? Nothing stopping you from buying and promoting his piece of shit fork
I will continue to save and spend in bitcoin because it works.
I have no issues with the trade offs that were made and having a second layer to spend my coins because it would be fucking retarded to use the mainchain to buy coffee like Roger ver wanted everyone to do…
they adopted monero, ethereum, and litecoin. all the transaction volume was on bitcoin at one point and later bitcoin lost most of it. people were already migrating to established networks with preexisting infrastructure before BCH existed. roger was right, they just didn't happen to choose the real bitcoin.
the only way to get most of that transaction volume back without doing consensus changes would involve shoving everyone into spark and other centralized solutions. you need consensus changes to get the transaction volume to come back to bitcoin without digging yourself into a hole. spark should not be a thing you permit to grow.
The intentions may have been good but they have been too overzealous. If someone is so poor that can't afford to run a node with slightly larger blocks, they are too busy trying to survive to worry about running a node anyways.
Although at least with agents using lightning might get easier, but scaling lightning still requires open and close transactions on the L1 and there is not enough room for any kind of mass adoption of Bitcoin at current block size.
Especially when you consider that we need to scale for not just humans to use Bitcoin, but for AI agents to also use Bitcoin. I don't know if AI usage of the chain was even an idea discussed during the blocksize wars or not.
As
@goatmeal pointed out,
if you had all the tx volume on Bitcoin, instead of a half-dozen different chains, you'd need bigger blocks.
it works for you and I now because we're the only people using Bitcoin. everyone who isn't a zealot moved to something that offers a better UX.
2nd order solutions become unacceptably centralized. this is inevitable.
but we can keep them *as decentralized as possible* by scaling as much as possible on L1 first.
there's no issue with people making small transactions on L1 except that eventually it becomes too crowded. I understand the techie desire to preemptively solve the problem, but pushing people into centralized solutions before they are even necessary will only make it easier for regulators and harder for users.
@gandlaf21you don't necessarily need bigger blocks, at least not huge ones anyway. you do need to use existing blockspace much more efficiently in ways that just aren't possible right now. and you need to enable different kinds of L2s that aren't prone to growing cancerous tumors all the time like lightning is. all this requires consensus changes.
when I say "bigger blocks" I just mean true 4mb blocks
or maybe 8mb at this point.
what kind of L2s do you mean?
Back in the day we called this the spill over effect.
It threw back adoption by a decade, but it enabled different approaches and new tech which ultimately can help us regain autonomy and sovereignity.
Consciousness and undrstandjng evolves as we move through time. In retrospect we can say that most people were not yet ready to understand how systems (can) get caprured over time.
One had to choose the path of small blocks. One that of transparency. Another one that of privacy.
Learn to move on. Learn to use the features BTC provides. Learn that not everything is a shitcoin. Not even bcash. Learn that there care actual low/no effort shitcoins. Learn that fiat price is not value.
We are here to learn. Integrating new perspectives. We areherev to build for ourselves, families and communities and to hedge against those who are waging a spiritual war against our destiny.
yes, I agree, 8 mb blocks are not going to kill bitcoin. only the dumbest people alive consider this a serious threat. the same people ignore the things that actually are going to kill bitcoin.
the only L2 idea that I really like is drivechains. I don't feel like regurgitating the reasons right now.
rollups can work, but we need a commitment to a rollup-centric roadmap, and I don't think the bitcoin ecosystem is willing to do that. they are also not a finished idea yet. we are still waiting for a rollup with a decentralized sequencer.
The fee pressure of 2017-2021 proved it empirically. When sending $20 onchain costs $30, users don't wait for L2 to mature — they just leave for other networks. Scaling L1 as far as economically viable before forcing migration makes more sense than making L2 the only option. The means became the end.
Now go spend your monero amd shut up.
Shut the fuck up.
Shut the fuck up. Your failing.
hilarious you reopening the conversation two days later
just to tell somebody to shut up 😂
you know you can just say nothing right?
You need to hear it again. Shut the fuck up.
make a point or seethe harder bro 😂
The answer is yes on both counts
That would have been true if 90% of the network didn’t run on defaults. Practice wins over theory every time.
You’re asking two different questions. OP_Return doesn’t bloat the UTXO set, but it definitely results in more data added to the disk as a result of relaxing the filter.
If 90% of the network runs on defaults that is because 90% of users voluntarily decide to do that.
What are you running?
That's when ya lost
Core 30
Of course, this bug is a feature. 🙄 Come back to the real world you wanker. If you run on defaults, you haven’t decided anything. Someone made the choice for you.
I highlighted the important part so your brain won’t have to struggle.
What if I think the default is the best option?
You can hold wrong opinions and still have to pay the opportunity cost. Or vice versa.
Ok I see you. But if it weren't for empty blocks or partially empty blocks being less data intensive would that made a difference?
And by the way that extra 36% of additional blockspace has eared miners less than 1% additional fee revenue on average. I hope you can see the problem eventually.
Empty blocks are a good thing? (Because they presumably save neglagable amount of disk space apparently) That's the hill you want to die on? Good luck with that. And have fun with your appeal to authority, I'd love to have your own thoughts but if that's too much to ask... Please send me another piece of ai slop- fud
😬
Tell me you didn’t read the article without telling me. Blocks are never “empty” unless in the rare cases where a miner mines an empty block. Also blocks have been consistently above 1.2MB full since 2017. They didn’t need a security bailout from spammers.
On the other matter, this guy is no authority by any stretch of the imagination. He’s a data analyst and currently it’s practically unknown. I just happen to like his humble and concise way of explaining and thought you might learn something from him too. Spam is a nuanced topic that requires much research to properly understand. I’ve been going through this rabbit hole for 3 years straight. Have you? Maybe if you didn’t have a knee jerk reaction to it, you would think differently. Questioning your biases is a sign of greater intelligence. But it’s painful initially.
It's just matter of semantics. It's true that "not full" does not equal "empty" but I'm pretty sure we both know that... But that does not change the fact that you are claiming a trivial amount of data that is saved by having "not full" blocks justifies all you active measures... But you do you. And the fact that you spent 3 years learning about this and you still think your farcical non solutions is a good idea and that it is going to achieve any sort of consensus is just sad.
> trivial amount of data that is saved
36% on average is trivial in your dictionary? Have you been reading Greg Maxwell by any chance? If yes, then you’re getting your data from dishonest sources.
Anyway, what I think is mostly irrelevant. In 6 months or less we’ll know who was right.
Hmm… I would argue the consistency should instead be people who do not want to change bitcoin.
Big blockers wanted to change bitcoin. Core v30 wanted to change bitcoin. BIP 110 wants to change bitcoin.
I’m against all of it. And the bigger the change, the worse. I hated what Core did. I hate what Knots is doing even more.
LEAVE BITCOIN ALONE.
View quoted note →But the devs (& people supporting their top down changes) are mad that a significant portion of the network is choosing a competitive client that keeps the user controls... If this is an open network where users get to choose direction, why all the hate?
Bitcoin Core developers have explicitly said users are free to run different software:
Bitcoin Core
Bitcoin Core development and transaction relay policy
Bitcoin Core development and transaction relay policy
What people like myself are sick of are the lies and deceptive rhetoric around all of this, and the toxic environment it creates.
open source and freedom to choose what we run is the reason any of this works. I'm just still a little confused why core v30 with raising the op_return limit was pushed so hard and immediately for release. seems like all it did was create disagreement
Your node, your software. It’s open code you can change the relay policy all you want. Core removed default relays that in their view were causing miner centralization as large miners were being given an unfair advantage. You are free to ignore that concern.
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