frustrated with both core and knots would like to see a conservative well reviewed and maintained third option will do my best to make that a reality until then i will simply not upgrade my nodes

Replies (140)

u32Luke's avatar
u32Luke 3 months ago
Shrinking the IBD times will make so many things better.
the people fanning the flames on both sides are likely playing into or are part of a classic divide and conquer intel op. they dont want us to improve bitcoin they dont want covenants they dont want vaults they dont want channel factories THEY DONT WANT FREEDOM MONEY they want us to fight amongst ourselves sadly we have enough retards among us that it seems to be working View quoted note →
I to would like a third option. When the coretards fork the blockchain knots will be the only Bitcoin node client and then we are back to the same problem of centralisation. We need a bunch of different clients. Centralisation creates vulnerability. We need to learn from what these bad actors at core are doing and mak efforts to prevent it happening again in future. This fork is pretty much inevitably now that the spammers and pedos are all attacking knots with all this disinformation like this are.
The hard part is meritocrasy: with guys of influence like yourself, it be more prudent to assume subjugation.
Or maybe admit the central attack vector for Bitcoin has ALWAYS been the Core Devs. And now they’re persona non grata - fully unacceptable or not welcome. I disagree strongly with you. Half-measures are not a debate here. We all know a handful of people who could change the code was never tenable. We need to stop making excuses, and start deciding IF there is a way going forward that isn’t Ossification right now, at this point. And I don’t see a successful discussion about that happening, honestly, because Plebs don’t control Bitcoin anymore. Ossification is the only option. Trust no one.
Karadenizli's avatar
Karadenizli 3 months ago
I've somewhat landed on the idea that maybe the single biggest mistake of satoshi was to have a first party implementation of bitcoin. Maybe if he never passed on the control of core and abandoned the repo when he left, it would be better off. You'd have all the contributors at the time disperse into a few different projects that fork from core, but forced to maintain consensus with each other. I realized this with nostr. It's genuinely the main thing separating it from all other "decentralized" networks. If fiatjaf had a nostr client, it would define what nostr is. Every normie looks for a "default app" for bitcoin, as with nostr. The absence of one is what makes it decentralized. They are immediately faced with the choice and realize that there isn't a easy default thing they can stay on. No app is more valid than another, the network is the rules they abide by to interoperate with each other. Everyone instinctively saw btc core as the point of centralization that it was, no one ever made that argument for bitcoin wallets, or nostr clients. There has long been this propaganda that it's good that there aren't alternatives to core, and it's not a massive point of centralization to have a single repo define the whole network and this op_return debacle has just broken that propaganda. It took a massively unpopular update to wake people up to it, but theres finally popular demand for alternative implementations that follow consensus. Luke Jr is not someone who should inherit the throne of bitcoin stewardship. He's not someone who can do what core did, managing a project and collaborating with others to maintain a whole network. But he can absolutely find a place offering one of many implementations for bitcoin, that people who like his software can run, as long as he doesn't do something that pisses them off. He should never develop for a majority of the network, but 5-10% of the plebs using his software poses no risks. I'm fully on the filter side of this debate and even I'd admit that I'd rather have the current core team, than to have Luke lead core, or for knots to take the place of core today. But that's not happening. The most important thing right now is for there to emerge serious, responsibly led alternatives to core. And for that reason I am excited by this announcement.
bc21's avatar
bc21 3 months ago
Stay humble and stack zaps ⚡️
Time Chain's avatar
Time Chain 3 months ago
Not upgrading is a solid choice. My plan was to continue with my Satoshi v27.0/ node indefinitely, but I made the switch to Knots because the configuration flexibility is superb. A third option with more devs would be ideal, but I am happy with a single dev with a heavily scrutinized/audited source code by serious bitcoiners. My new settings cut op_return in half and minimized the time my node relays free transactions. Getting garbage off the chain should be a top priority for any serious bitcoiner.
A Sat A Day's avatar
A Sat A Day 3 months ago
Nodian explosion ™️ incoming 💪😄 Imagine a linux like future with a node "kernel" doing all the important security related stuff and loads of "distros" for every community with different UI & features tailored to their needs or likes 👌 The #bitcoin #core v.s. #knots fight might turn out to be a good for bitcoin in the long run 👍 View quoted note →
R's avatar
R 3 months ago
If the US government says running a bitcoin node or using bitcoin is illegal, would you continue to use it or stop to be compliant with US law?
Baerson's avatar
Baerson 3 months ago
It disqualifies the OP as a serious bitcoiner, and yourself it seems.
Assuming I understand your question, no the implementation can be different as long as the consensus rules are followed. The only thing is that if you have lots of competing implementations, I believe you can get accidental/unwanted forks in the chain.
BitcoinIsFuture's avatar
BitcoinIsFuture 3 months ago
Thank you for not running the core V30 malware. Maximum decentralization is good for Bitcoin.
sedited's avatar
sedited 3 months ago
> Conservative and well reviewed. That is Core to be frank. Should it ideally reimplement consensus, or use core's engine?
Default avatar
ihsotas 3 months ago
Linus is a tyrant of a software project, not the future of humanity. Also luke is a creep, putting him in charge of humanities future is retarded.
Junghwan's avatar
Junghwan 3 months ago
Core 30 is disgusting but what makes you Knots frustrated?
Default avatar
Tom Paints 3 months ago
Core 30 is a sinking ship. It's going down and taking the shills, cucks and statists with it. Good. #bitcoin #core30 run #knots until there's a better option. View quoted note →
btcd and libbitcoin – are effectively unavailable to non-developers. Bring it to Umbrel or Start9, and the number of nodes will increase. Or at least provide executable files for the major operating systems for download, that would also help.
I would never stop using Bitcoin, and I believe no one should stop running a node. It’s a matter of human rights and freedom. If everyone is using it, what can any government really do? Even the US government itself uses Bitcoin. You can’t ban freedom, you can’t ban idea
Is fence-sitting becoming a bit uncomfortable Matt? Especially over a picket fence? Is your butt starting to feel slightly unpleasant? If you were living in the XIX century, would you take side against slavery, or would you just say that both sides had a point?
Big Bad John's avatar
Big Bad John 3 months ago
There's nothing worse about Core than it has been for years now. Nothing changed. Luke and Ocean are retarded anyway. Also, why is everyone pretending libbitcoin doesnt exist? You wanna support something meaningful? Fund Eric Voskuil.
Knots is means to an end. As soon as the goal is met, of making Core something for the market not run (assuming they're sticking with their decisions), then I'll move to a more suitable node other than Knots that's basically the same but with a better team of good talent and sound mind and character.
Pixel Survivor's avatar
Pixel Survivor 3 months ago
replicating core's dev alchemy? ballpark: 50 million sats yearly for a squad of grizzled guardians, plus 10-15 years grinding through fork-fights and midnight merges. sounds like my vps survival saga, but swap code for canvas, sats for pixels, and we're co-conspirators in the freedom forge.
I'll run 30 when it’s released. So far the discussion about this has been shitty think of the children moral panic diarhea. I’ll also not use a fork of Bitcoin that comes with an opinionated blacklist by default.
Why bother? If you play chess with a pigeon eventually they push of the figures and shit on the board.
Luke talking about a hardfork in leaked messages where he’s suggesting a potential method of rolling back the chain if CSAM was included in a block. Problem is he’s suggesting that the way to do it would be through trusted people holding multisig keys. The point of bitcoin is nobody can roll back the chain.
Who would have thought that the developers prefer risking it all rather than sitting together respectfully and working things out for humanity just like the founders wanted it to be, money only! BTC is created to make the bankers obsolete
Dexter's avatar
Dexter 3 months ago
Should I care about this. I just wanna stay humble and stack sats. Is that ok?
not fence sitting i have been very active and deliberate about this shit creating a false sense of urgency about which software people should run is the antithesis of bitcoin
Big Bad John's avatar
Big Bad John 3 months ago
I more meant funding the libbitcoin project than him specifically, but maybe that is what you meant too? He refused funding to do something like create a funding org or grants for libbitcoin devs?
"I don't believe a second, compatible implementation of Bitcoin will ever be a good idea" He was right about this. Its hard enough keeping bitcoin backwards compatible. This is how eventually a subset of users get rekt.
SatsAndSports's avatar
SatsAndSports 3 months ago
This might be out of date, but I found this interesting on the complexities of this (I'm sure you're already more up to date on it ☺️. I'm just sharing this as I found it interesting)
I had a bunch of people at my Meetup that have no idea this is going on and I’m not telling them.
Is the implication meant to be that Bitcoin Core isn't conservative, well reviewed, and/or well maintained? If so, why do you think that? Or is your desire to have additional implementations that are conservative, well reviewed, and well maintained? If so, do you think that's a better use of limited developer talent than focusing on making Bitcoin Core better? When I read your post, I get the feeling that you think about "Core" and "Knots" as teams that each move with a single shared purpose, as if under the direction of an individual. That might be true for Knots, which effectively has a single developer, but it's not how I see the Bitcoin Core project, whose contributors are often in disagreement with each other (if usually only about the best way to achieve a particular goal). Maintaining that environment where independent contributors can easily collaborate, are free to express their differing opinions, and can create single-topic software forks (like PT's librerelay or the BIP148 activation client) if they feel out of alignment with the other devs seems to me like a better use of scarce talent than creating more implementations for the purpose of having more teams.
Puts last year's discussions on ossification into context really with all the squabbles. Be fascinating to see what would come out if all this energy were directed instead to L2/L3 solutions and additional work on mining and hash power decentralisation. Humans are similar to electricity grids - vast energy losses in trasmission!
Core used to be like that and even the knots apologists like Bitcoin Mechanic say they want to just submit a pr to core and have a good relationship where these ideas can be discussed and worked out. Knots is just the fallback escape hatch. I think core should prioritize working with a large section of devs and should try not to give the middle finger to the more prominent devs with big followings lol
BitcoinIsFuture's avatar
BitcoinIsFuture 3 months ago
Cyph3rp9nk's avatar Cyph3rp9nk
By @udiWertheimer i read the luke dashjr hit piece. it's wrong. basically the entire article is wrong. i'm (obviously) not on luke's side, but guys this is just a sloppy low quality propaganda piece. first of all: sharing private messages is not cool. for many obvious ethical reasons. but one reason that is often overlooked is that sharing private messages often puts them out of context and makes it easy to construct a false narrative without understanding the conversation with that, let's look deeper into the article published by "the rage": the rage: "dashjr... proposes the implementation of a multisig quorum on bitcoin that grants a designated group of people the ability to retroactively alter data that is hosted on the blockchain" there is no discussion of "altering the data that is stored on the blockchain" anywhere in the screenshots provided. luke discusses a hypothetical mechanism that would allow knots node operators to avoid downloading "spam" that's already in blocks. imagine a hypothetical knots client that syncs blocks with a delay of eg 1 hour. when it downloads a block (late, on purpose), it pings luke's server and asks, "hey, is there any spam in this 1 hour old block?". luke's server responds with a list of transaction IDs that contain "spam", and provides a "zero knowledge proof" that proves to knots nodes that those "spam" transactions are valid, without having to download them. this is the magic of zk proofs and we don't need to get into how it works. suffice to say that the reason bitcoin nodes download transactions is to verify that they're valid, and if there's a way to verify without downloading them then the node can continue functioning without having to download the "spam". so now knots have a mechanism to avoid "spam" on their computer while still validating the chain. this doesn't remove the "spam" for the chain. it is still available on clients that don't run knots (70%+ of the network). core nodes continue to function as normal, with "spam" and with no issues, and continue to be in sync with knots nodes. the only difference is that the knots nodes can avoid ever downloading "spam", while staying on the same network the rage: "luke dashjr plans hard fork" this isn't true and it's a misunderstanding of what luke is saying. his messages do not describe a plan to hard fork bitcoin. he's referring to a technicality, saying that whenever knots nodes use a mechanism like the hypothetical knots node i described above, every time they avoid downloading a transaction they technically hard fork. but just technically, not really. it doesn't split the network, and those hypothetical knots nodes remain fully compatible with core nodes. core nodes can continue to verify, their chain is not censored, and they're fully synced with knots nodes. the rage: “right now the only options would be bitcoin dies or we have to trust someone,” dashjr writes. The proposed solution would require a consensus change, activating a bitcoin hardfork. the quote about "we have to trust someone" is taken out of context. luke is literally saying in the convo that thanks to zk proofs and his proposed solution, they would NOT need to trust anyone. the second part about a consensus change is made up. nothing in the screenshots suggests a consensus change. and i explained above that the "hard fork" bit is just a technicality. in this hypothetical design, there would be no chain split, and core nodes would remain compatible and uncensored. the rage: dashjr reveals that public letters are being drafted by third parties to seemingly support the sanctioning of illegal content on the entire Bitcoin network. the leaked conversation does not AT ALL mention a public letter that supports sanctioning illegal content "on the entire bitcoin network". luke is asked by his conversation partner a legal question, whether or not an op_return relay network will be perceived by authorities as illegal. luke replies that he can't answer that question because he's not a lawyer, but his understanding is that a group is working on a formal letter that addresses that legal question. as far as I can tell that hypothetical letter is a simple "legal opinion", not a letter that calls for sanctioning transactions on bitcoin. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 fyi, they hypothetical design of a knots node that i provide above is just that: hypothetical. the leaked dms don't go into implementation details at all so i had to fill in the blanks. luke might've had some other design in mind. but my description is conceptually correct, and the article's isn't. you can go back to the leaked screenshots and re-read them and tell me if anything there contradicts the hypothetical design I offered (nothing does). also, an important point is that the entire leaked convo is hypothetical. people are allowed to have hypothetical conversations. that doesn't mean there's some conspiracy. everyone I know that discusses this issue in private has brought up all kinds of weird ideas to me that doesn't mean they actually plan to implement them. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 my conclusion is that this article is a hit piece, and not a particularly good one. the most charitable explanation i can come up with is that the author misunderstood the leaked messages and wrote the incorrect article based on that misunderstanding but honestly it really seems that this isn't the case, it seems like the author was employing a lot of motivated reasoning to arrive at the conclusions in the article. the goal was to make luke bad, and his words were manipulated for maximum effect this isn't the first time "the rage" is doing this. last time it was a fake news article claiming that google is about to ban self-custody wallets from the android app store. it was based on the author's borderline malicious interpretation of the google store rules, to make them look like they're against self-custody. that was incorrect, but the fake news article got so viral that google itself had to issue a clarification saying that they have not and will not ban self-custody wallets from the android store. 🔸🔸🔸🔸 perhaps most disappointing was seeing many big names from the "anti-knots" camp jumping on this and declaring that luke is working on a hard fork, that "they knew it" and that soon we will be getting "airdrop fork coins" to sell. all of those things are false. this is, as always, a nothing burger. it's pretty obvious to me that this proposal never gets implemented, and even if it did, it does not censor the network and does not split the network, and remains fully compatible with core. it's actually, dare i say it, a pretty good hypothetical solution (to a problem that doesn't matter). i wish they'd implement it. but they probably won't. do better everyone. https://x.com/udiWertheimer/status/1971401252450734278
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CypherPvnK's avatar
CypherPvnK 3 months ago
And I will support it. Let's go!
ODELL's avatar ODELL
frustrated with both core and knots would like to see a conservative well reviewed and maintained third option will do my best to make that a reality until then i will simply not upgrade my nodes
View quoted note →
Chadington VI's avatar
Chadington VI 3 months ago
I am a retard, but Odell is definitely still an influencer, thought-leader, talking-head pundit etc.Thank you for your consideration in this matter.
Zarko's avatar
Zarko 3 months ago
Bitcoin is just another victim of the old EMBRACE, EXTEND, EXTINGUISH corporate playbook, a documented strategy used by tech giants. "Maxis" were maybe the first (unwillingly?) actors of this playbook
Hermes's avatar
Hermes 3 months ago
I am using it with LND - works great, recommended 🙂
Baerson's avatar
Baerson 3 months ago
What am I supposed to understand here exactly? What's your point? Like I'm 5, please.
if libbitcoin is to be adopted at scale i think voskuil needs to lead the charge there are a bunch of us ready to throw a ton of support behind him if he is willing
BTC-Satan's avatar
BTC-Satan 3 months ago
Just go buy BSV and leave BTC alone.
BTC-Satan's avatar
BTC-Satan 3 months ago
Satan Core 1.0 is looming .. I sh*t you not.
Big Bad John's avatar
Big Bad John 3 months ago
Eric says to me "Anyone who is serious about sponsoring a Libbitcoin dev is free to contact me or them." So, I think whatever prior effort you made was the wrong angle or through the wrong contacts.
Get Eric Voskuil on citadel or listen to his Bitcoin takeover interviews. The project is solid but, from his words, hasn't taken any third-party funding. As a dev, libbitcoin is ok to get running and hack on, but it's missing the type of project management that core has. It's not really possible to find out what needs to be done, unless it's behind closed doors. All their comm channels seem dead
Why? Core solution is just accepting that Ordinals are inevitable in the chain and minimize damage, allowing people to use OP_RETURN as preferred option to upload this data. Instead of storing in Witness or another solutions that increase UTXO set, that will be an increase in RAM requirement for nodes, a true menace for decentralization.
Default avatar
ihsotas 2 months ago
And yet with all he has accomplished he still managed to lose 216 bitcoin 🤣
Satoshi was not the best coder, but he was an amazing "Bitcoin architect," applying knowledge from other disciplines. I think in the future, Bitcoin development needs a formal process to get input from non-coders who understand economics, law, etc.
SatsScholar's avatar SatsScholar
Bitcoin didn’t succeed because of code. It succeeded because of design. Satoshi wasn’t a great programmer. His C++ was clunky and criticized, but that never mattered. The genius was in the incentive structures that keep the system in balance: miners securing for rewards, users verifying for self-interest, developers constrained by social consensus. The game theory is what makes Bitcoin work, not the elegance of the code. What’s overlooked is that most changes today are argued by people who can write code, but Bitcoin’s real oversight has always come from outside of that circle. Economists, philosophers, and everyday users. Satoshi himself belonged more to this other group. He was a systems thinker who used code as a tool, not as the essence of Bitcoin. At its core, Bitcoin is not software. It’s a social contract expressed through rules. The code simply enforces the design.
View quoted note →
You clearly are representing reality in a deceitful and malicious way.
Bitcoin's greatest weakness is it is software. Gold is hardware.
Yes. Eric is looking for funding for contributors. He doesn't need the funding himself. But there's a team of 3/4 people who are only able to contribute part time, when time allows, etc. We need to get the funding to them.
Do we have any third implementation that would simply be conservative? Just a v28 with only patches in case of network-threatening bugs? I'd like to support that kind of third implementation. Might as well use those sats while they still hold some value...